Discussion:
So lets talk about baritones
(too old to reply)
Charlie Handelman
2004-01-13 03:19:40 UTC
Permalink
As long as we are on the "Warren and other baritone kick" on
Opera-l, I might as well post some of my feelings on this voice category.
After all,those ego-maniacal tenors and those flighty sopranos get so much
publicity...it is time to discuss the REAL DUDES!!!!!
As I have stated, Leonard Warren was my all-time favorite
baritone (that I saw live) because there was NOTHING he could not do..besides
the fabulous voice and the great technique, he had the emotional depth and on
stage was a fine actor. That "potato-in-mouth" sound some people do not like is
a personal thing..and I hear what they mean,but it mattered not a whit to me.
You want a "Verdi line?" Just listen to the Macbeth "Pieta,rispetto"
and the man just sends you to heaven!!!! He was also the ONLY SINGER whose top
A natural at the end of the Forza act four duet could actually cover the great
Richard Tucker..no easy feat!!!! I once pitched one of Warren's cries of
"Gildaaaaaaa" at the end of Act two Rigoletto around a high D! This man
thrilled me beyond belief, and how terrifying it was to see him on that Met
stage on the evening of March 4,1960,sounding magnificent, singing of
"Morir,tremenda cosa," and then dying before our astonished eyes!
I do believe that Robert Merrill has had the all-time most gorgeous
natural baritone quality in history, but his lack of artistry and depth of
emotion in the baritone repertory (you cannot just stand there like Radames!!!)
never got me interested, and I found the top "woofy" and his career never
attracted me,despite the greatness of tone..whereas I adored dear Frank
Guarrera who did not possess anywhere near what Merrill had..this is my
personal feeling...I just never went to an opera "because Merrill was in it."
Gobbi's voice effectively pretty much ended at around a high E and
the rest was a shout, but the man was a great great singer,and we cannot
diminish his many accomplishments. The voice was huge,although he tended to
shout like mad,especially on top..but the man was still a great force in
opera.I still wonder why he never learned to produce the voice above the
pasaggio.
Ettore Bastianini had a simply luscious,dark and truly phenomenal
quality, but the top was problematic,and often hoarse, possibly an early
symptom of the cancer that eventually ended his life. In certain roles he was
unmatched ( The Chenier Gerard the night after Warren died was sensational..we
have the prompter's box tape.)
Cornell MacNeil had one of the all-time greatest voices in his
fach,although he was less interesting than say Gobbi or Guarrera..but when he
finished the Act Three Ernani aria, the place exploded from the sheer power of
his voice, and he had an illustrious career until he began to sing the top
notes all open and spread..but imagine having the above baritones all
overlapping within a relatively short period..NOT ONE "Verdi baritone" today
comes close..maybe Mark Delavan is a comer,and in certain repertory
Hvorostovsky is sublime,but we are inundated with the mediocrity of
Pons,Burchinall,and Croft in the Italian repertory...and do not DARE to curse
by uttering the word "Leiferkus" because I will lose my dinner!
Going back further,I adore Pavel Lisitsian as one of the
all-time greats (and he is still alive) and loved George London and then come
those Germans whom I have always favored:
Schoeffler,Hann,Bohnen,Bockelman,Berglund,Hotter, and the great Gabriel
Bacquier and Jean Borthayre for the French baritones.
Ever hear the Jan.21,1939 Simone Boccanegra with Lawrence
Tibbett as Simone and Warren as the Paolo? Just play it and tell me that
ANYTHING today comes close.
I left out plenty of fine baritones,but this for now.
Charlie
My best, Charlie.

My Website dedicated to the vocal art is located at:

http://www.handelmania.com
John
2004-01-13 04:01:46 UTC
Permalink
As a baritone myself, BRAVO! And I'd like to mention Milnes (in his
prime) - no one had those astounding top notes like him. Glad to see
Cornell MacNeil listed, what an incredible pillar of sound.

And I agree about Warren - get him, Bjoerling and Milanov together and you
should just send everyone else home.

- John
Post by Charlie Handelman
As long as we are on the "Warren and other baritone kick" on
Opera-l, I might as well post some of my feelings on this voice category.
After all,those ego-maniacal tenors and those flighty sopranos get so much
publicity...it is time to discuss the REAL DUDES!!!!!
As I have stated, Leonard Warren was my all-time favorite
baritone (that I saw live) because there was NOTHING he could not do..besides
the fabulous voice and the great technique, he had the emotional depth and on
stage was a fine actor. That "potato-in-mouth" sound some people do not like is
a personal thing..and I hear what they mean,but it mattered not a whit to me.
You want a "Verdi line?" Just listen to the Macbeth
"Pieta,rispetto"
Post by Charlie Handelman
and the man just sends you to heaven!!!! He was also the ONLY SINGER whose top
A natural at the end of the Forza act four duet could actually cover the great
Richard Tucker..no easy feat!!!! I once pitched one of Warren's cries of
"Gildaaaaaaa" at the end of Act two Rigoletto around a high D! This man
thrilled me beyond belief, and how terrifying it was to see him on that Met
stage on the evening of March 4,1960,sounding magnificent, singing of
"Morir,tremenda cosa," and then dying before our astonished eyes!
I do believe that Robert Merrill has had the all-time most gorgeous
natural baritone quality in history, but his lack of artistry and depth of
emotion in the baritone repertory (you cannot just stand there like Radames!!!)
never got me interested, and I found the top "woofy" and his career never
attracted me,despite the greatness of tone..whereas I adored dear Frank
Guarrera who did not possess anywhere near what Merrill had..this is my
personal feeling...I just never went to an opera "because Merrill was in it."
Gobbi's voice effectively pretty much ended at around a high E and
the rest was a shout, but the man was a great great singer,and we cannot
diminish his many accomplishments. The voice was huge,although he tended to
shout like mad,especially on top..but the man was still a great force in
opera.I still wonder why he never learned to produce the voice above the
pasaggio.
Ettore Bastianini had a simply luscious,dark and truly phenomenal
quality, but the top was problematic,and often hoarse, possibly an early
symptom of the cancer that eventually ended his life. In certain roles he was
unmatched ( The Chenier Gerard the night after Warren died was
sensational..we
Post by Charlie Handelman
have the prompter's box tape.)
Cornell MacNeil had one of the all-time greatest voices in his
fach,although he was less interesting than say Gobbi or Guarrera..but when he
finished the Act Three Ernani aria, the place exploded from the sheer power of
his voice, and he had an illustrious career until he began to sing the top
notes all open and spread..but imagine having the above baritones all
overlapping within a relatively short period..NOT ONE "Verdi baritone" today
comes close..maybe Mark Delavan is a comer,and in certain repertory
Hvorostovsky is sublime,but we are inundated with the mediocrity of
Pons,Burchinall,and Croft in the Italian repertory...and do not DARE to curse
by uttering the word "Leiferkus" because I will lose my dinner!
Going back further,I adore Pavel Lisitsian as one of the
all-time greats (and he is still alive) and loved George London and then come
Schoeffler,Hann,Bohnen,Bockelman,Berglund,Hotter, and the great Gabriel
Bacquier and Jean Borthayre for the French baritones.
Ever hear the Jan.21,1939 Simone Boccanegra with Lawrence
Tibbett as Simone and Warren as the Paolo? Just play it and tell me that
ANYTHING today comes close.
I left out plenty of fine baritones,but this for now.
Charlie
My best, Charlie.
http://www.handelmania.com
donpaolo
2004-01-13 17:26:26 UTC
Permalink
I was most fortunate in having had the opportunity to see Leonard Warren 13
times (the last just happened to be in "that" Forza).

For me, & my (at the time) young ears, LW set the standards for Verdi & the
other dramatic Italian roles (Barnaba, Gerard, Tonio) that he sang. I do
not consider his voice as "beautiful", per se, but then again, I do not
feel that a baritone singing his repertoire requires a beautiful sound.
Rather, I prefer a "snarl" for the much-needed dramatic intensity &
statement; and power to dominate the stage in making those statements. LW's
sound was huge, a tornado (I remember that it had a sort of built-in echo);
but as Charlie has suggested, he was quite capable of scaling it down & to
accomplish "beautiful" things with it - in "Di Provenza", "il balen", "era
la notte", "piangi fanciulla", etc., etc. His diminuendo in "no vecchio
t'ingani, un vindice avraaaaaaiiii was something the magnificent Franco
Corelli would have been envious of; and, those cries of "Giiiildaaaah" were
hair-raising. Finally, those top notes were capable of keeping up with the
most forceful of tenors of his time - Tucker & DelMonaco.

The baritones who I do feel had/have "beautiful" voices - Bastianini,
Merrill, Tibbett, Hvor, just do not cut it for me as far as the
characterizations, along with the necessary dominancefor the evil/bad guy
forces, as did Warren.

The closest I have experienced to the magnificent LW is Mark Delavan - if he
develops a more "let it hang out" sense of histrionics, we will have a great
one here.

DonPaolo
Leonard Tillman
2004-01-13 18:28:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by donpaolo
The baritones who I do feel had/have
"beautiful" voices - Bastianini, Merrill, Tibbett,
Hvor, just do not cut it for me as far as the
characterizations, along with the necessary
dominancefor the evil/bad guy forces, as did
Warren.
I think that of these four *very* beautiful voices, Bastianini did have
as convincing a "snarl" in his sound/phrasing as any of the
"grotesque-toned" baritones noted for their success in roles of
villainy.
Post by donpaolo
The closest I have experienced to the
magnificent LW is Mark Delavan - if he
develops a more "let it hang out" sense of
histrionics, we will have a great one here.
He's definitely cut from the Warren=Milnes cloth, and was recognizable
to me as a standout from the first I heard of him (Scarpia, in the NYCO
telecast of Tosca a few years ago).
Post by donpaolo
DonPaolo
Leonard Tillman
"Punctuality is the virtue of the bored."
-- Evelyn Waugh
Leonard Tillman
2004-01-13 19:41:39 UTC
Permalink
Also among my Favorites:

Gian Giacomo Guelfi
Mario Sereni
Frank Guarrera
Francesco Valentino
Giuseppe Scandola
Giuseppe Taddei
Rolando Panerai

Leonard Tillman
"Punctuality is the virtue of the bored."
-- Evelyn Waugh
Karen Mercedes
2004-01-13 05:07:07 UTC
Permalink
Tibbett and Lisitsian top my list of "classic" baris.

The current baritone I'm listening to and liking most is Simon Keenlyside.

Karen Mercedes
http://www.radix.net/~dalila/index.html
________________________________
I want to know God's thoughts...
the rest are details.
- Albert Einstein
DmitriLvr
2004-01-13 16:40:20 UTC
Permalink
Hi Karen,

Yes, I listen to SK more than any other baritone at the moment. He has
such a lovely golden tone in his mezzo voce that I love as well as the
fragile emotional resonance of his performances....

Wendy
Post by Karen Mercedes
Tibbett and Lisitsian top my list of "classic" baris.
The current baritone I'm listening to and liking most is Simon Keenlyside.
Karen Mercedes
http://www.radix.net/~dalila/index.html
________________________________
I want to know God's thoughts...
the rest are details.
- Albert Einstein
Karen Mercedes
2004-01-13 17:53:43 UTC
Permalink
Have you got his recording of the Vaughan Williams 5 Mystical Songs on
Naxos? It has displaced the Thomas Allen recording as my #1 recording of
these.


Karen Mercedes
http://www.radix.net/~dalila/index.html
________________________________
I want to know God's thoughts...
the rest are details.
- Albert Einstein
A Tsar Is Born
2004-01-13 17:13:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by Karen Mercedes
Tibbett and Lisitsian top my list of "classic" baris.
The current baritone I'm listening to and liking most is Simon Keenlyside.
Oh yeah. I forgot Keenlyside. And Quastoff.
But one runs out of superlatives in both cases.

Hans Lick
A Tsar Is Born
2004-01-13 17:12:01 UTC
Permalink
Never heard Warren or Bastianini (alas, alas) or Gobbi. MacNeil's voice I
always found ugly but he was very funny in Cosi fan tutte one season when he
had NO voice left. Guerrara was capable. Merrill sounded wonderful and
didn't make you think. I wish there was a voice like that in the Verdi rep
today.

To my great surprise Tom Hampson is showing some decent expression in Verdi.
He alienated me in his early years, when he seemed so stuck on himself, but
he is singing his way back into favor. Hvorostovsky has a glorious voice in
Russian opera, but his Germont displeased me greatly -- great loud gulping
gasps for air between every two phrases -- it's about LINE guys, we
shouldn't see the cracks in the plasterwork. Nikitin, the Russian kid who
sang the title role in The Demon last summer was promising too, but he ran
out of breath by the end of that (extremely long) role. Wolfgang Brendel
used to be a wonderful Verdi baritone, not that the Met ever noticed. (I
heard him in Forza in SF.) I can remember better than competent performances
from Leo Nucci and Louis Quilico and Juan Pons and Pablo Elvira, all of whom
everyone else seems to want to forget. And if we are talking baritones of
the past, I basked in the awesomely beautiful and far from undramatic voice
of Sherill Milnes in my early years of opera going (and I wish we had
someone like THAT in the Verdi rep today -- plus he had the second most
beautiful trill I've ever heard from anyone and was terrific in Donizetti,
Bellini, Rossini). Vladimir Chernov was the rare Russian who had the right
flavor for Italian roles, but the sound was not very big and the Met seemed
to exhaust him. (I'm told he's recovered well in Italy.) I have certainly
joined the Mark Delavan fan club -- he sounds better at the Met (Amonasro,
Messenger in Frau) than he did at NYCO, where I enjoyed his Dutchman, did
not get excited by his Macbeth. Who was that Romanian baritone who sang a
gorgeous smoky Simon B with Mattila a few years back? The Met dropped him,
and his enunciation was not good, but it was a lovely sound. Franz
Grundheber did a decent Rigoletto. Greer Grimsley is pretty but can't sing.
Putilin is competent. Croft is reliable. Michaels-Moore is fine. Friends who
went to SF for Don Carlos say that Bo Skovhus, who has never been anything
but mediocre at the Met, turns out to be a great Verdi baritone. Dollars to
donuts the Met casting dept. takes another ten years to figure that out and
give him a chance. Earle Patriarco is boring, but Gino Quilico is pleasant.
Richard Paul Fink has a good gruff sound, ideal for Kurwenal.

And, saving the best for last, I am the Number One non-Polish member of the
Mariusz Kwiecien fan club -- the sound is exquisite, the package handsome,
he's a natural actor, and all he really needs at c. 30 years old -- aside
from time to let the sound grow naturally into the Verdi roles for which it
is clearly destined -- is enough confidence that the sound can carry so that
he does not scream. He tends to scream as if he thinks he has to pound your
ears. It's such a wonderful voice when he doesn't, when he's content to let
it float: dark and sinister and virile. He's been specializing in Donizetti
and Mozart, and that's where he should be right now. Also a fine lieder
singer. If he doesn't wreck it by over-singing, in fifteen years he'll be
the most evil Pizarro ever. And I've never heard one who was remotely evil
enough. Worth hanging around for.

Hans Lick
Karen Mercedes
2004-01-13 17:56:21 UTC
Permalink
Speaking of great Polish baritones, how about the late, great Andrzej
Hiolski. One of my all-time favourites - I only wish he recorded more of
the "canon". His first KROL ROGER made me almost appreciate that opera
(I'm not a big Szymanowski fan).


Karen Mercedes
http://www.radix.net/~dalila/index.html
________________________________
I want to know God's thoughts...
the rest are details.
- Albert Einstein
Leonard Tillman
2004-01-13 18:17:21 UTC
Permalink
My all-time favorites are Merrill, Bastianini, Bechi, Stracciari, Ruffo,
Granforte, Gobbi, Warren, and in a different fach, Eddy and Wrightson
(both of whom did sing Opera, also).

I'll add that I'm somewhat amazed at the similarity of the views quoted
below, to my own, including the comments on MacNeil and Hampson, and,
for this group, the atypical appreciation for Nucci, Quilico, J. Pons,
Elvira, Brendel, and Chernov - six really underrated baritones.

I also admire Milnes, his oft-mentioned flaws notwithstanding, - and am
similarly impressed by Delavan, a real "force" from whom a great deal
can be expected in the next few years.

Btw, the Romanian baritone in reference below may be Alexandru Agache
(?).

I do have a higher estimation than expressed here, of Guarrera,
Merrill, and Hvorostovsky, though. The latter's gulps/gasps ("gulasps",
perhaps?) are marring, but to me, not maximally annoying. Agreed, also,
on Grundheber's Rigoletto.
-- One of a few decent interpretors of that role, today.

LT

=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
From: ***@hotmail.com (A=A0Tsar=A0Is=A0Born)

Never heard Warren or Bastianini (alas, alas) or Gobbi. MacNeil's voice
I always found ugly but he was very funny in Cosi fan tutte one season
when he had NO voice left. Guerrara was capable. Merrill sounded
wonderful and didn't make you think. I wish there was a voice like that
in the Verdi rep today.
To my great surprise Tom Hampson is showing some decent expression in
Verdi. He alienated me in his early years, when he seemed so stuck on
himself, but he is singing his way back into favor. Hvorostovsky has a
glorious voice in Russian opera, but his Germont displeased me greatly
-- great loud gulping gasps for air between every two phrases -- it's
about LINE guys, we shouldn't see the cracks in the plasterwork.
Nikitin, the Russian kid who sang the title role in The Demon last
summer was promising too, but he ran out of breath by the end of that
(extremely long) role. Wolfgang Brendel used to be a wonderful Verdi
baritone, not that the Met ever noticed. (I heard him in Forza in SF.) I
can remember better than competent performances from Leo Nucci and Louis
Quilico and Juan Pons and Pablo Elvira, all of whom everyone else seems
to want to forget. And if we are talking baritones of the past, I basked
in the awesomely beautiful and far from undramatic voice of Sherill
Milnes in my early years of opera going (and I wish we had someone like
THAT in the Verdi rep today -- plus he had the second most beautiful
trill I've ever heard from anyone and was terrific in Donizetti,
Bellini, Rossini). Vladimir Chernov was the rare Russian who had the
right flavor for Italian roles, but the sound was not very big and the
Met seemed to exhaust him. (I'm told he's recovered well in Italy.) I
have certainly joined the Mark Delavan fan club -- he sounds better at
the Met (Amonasro, Messenger in Frau) than he did at NYCO, where I
enjoyed his Dutchman, did not get excited by his Macbeth. Who was that
Romanian baritone who sang a gorgeous smoky Simon B with Mattila a few
years back? The Met dropped him, and his enunciation was not good, but
it was a lovely sound. Franz Grundheber did a decent Rigoletto. Greer
Grimsley is pretty but can't sing. Putilin is competent. Croft is
reliable. Michaels-Moore is fine. Friends who went to SF for Don Carlos
say that Bo Skovhus, who has never been anything but mediocre at the
Met, turns out to be a great Verdi baritone. Dollars to donuts the Met
casting dept. takes another ten years to figure that out and give him a
chance. Earle Patriarco is boring, but Gino Quilico is pleasant. Richard
Paul Fink has a good gruff sound, ideal for Kurwenal.
And, saving the best for last, I am the Number One non-Polish member of
the Mariusz Kwiecien fan club -- the sound is exquisite, the package
handsome, he's a natural actor, and all he really needs at c. 30 years
old -- aside from time to let the sound grow naturally into the Verdi
roles for which it is clearly destined -- is enough confidence that the
sound can carry so that he does not scream. He tends to scream as if he
thinks he has to pound your ears. It's such a wonderful voice when he
doesn't, when he's content to let it float: dark and sinister and
virile. He's been specializing in Donizetti and Mozart, and that's where
he should be right now. Also a fine lieder singer. If he doesn't wreck
it by over-singing, in fifteen years he'll be the most evil Pizarro
ever. And I've never heard one who was remotely evil enough. Worth
hanging around for.

Hans Lick
David Melnick
2004-01-13 20:44:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by A Tsar Is Born
Sherill Milnes in my early years of opera going (and I wish we had
someone like THAT in the Verdi rep today -- plus he had the second most
beautiful trill I've ever heard from anyone
OK. I'll bite. Whose was the most beautiful you've heard?

Thanks, BTW, for this wonderful survey. And thanks to
everyone else who has contributed.

David
A Tsar Is Born
2004-01-13 22:18:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by David Melnick
Post by A Tsar Is Born
Sherill Milnes in my early years of opera going (and I wish we had
someone like THAT in the Verdi rep today -- plus he had the second most
beautiful trill I've ever heard from anyone
OK. I'll bite. Whose was the most beautiful you've heard?
Oh. Sutherland's of course. The most perfect ever. If you isolated a split
second of a Sutherland trill, you'd have a perfectly pitched note. With most
singers, you'd just get a sort of unfocused flutter.

HL

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