After MELCHIOR, there's been NO real heldentenor on world stages!!!

Date: 10/25/2003 8:18 AM Central Daylight Time
After MELCHIOR, there's been NO real heldentenor on world stages!!!
I am training singers whom I hope will contribute to the survival of vocally
properly represented Wagner music dramas, not scat-singing or barking.
Kenneth Lane, heldentenor
Director, The Festspielhaus of Boonton
418A Main Street, Boonton, NJ 07005-0172
Website: www.WagnerOpera.com [downloadable main auditorium Carnegie Hall my
performances of Wagner and high Cs, "Samples of Kenneth lLane's singing"]
(973) 335-0111

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Dear Mr.Lane:

If you mean that Lauritz Melchior remains the greatest heldentenor on record, I
would agree with you.

But there have been other heldentenors since the Great Dane.

Some of them are:

Set Svanholm
Wolfgang Windgassen
Jon Vickers
Ernst Kozub
Max Lorenz
Ramon Vinay
Ludwig Suthaus

==G/P Dave

Richard Loeb

2003-10-25 13:47:37 UTC

The only person on this list who was actually a heldentenor was Lorenz
though the others sang the Heldentenor repertoire. Richard

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
If you mean that Lauritz Melchior remains the greatest heldentenor on record, I
would agree with you.
But there have been other heldentenors since the Great Dane.
Set Svanholm
Wolfgang Windgassen
Jon Vickers
Ernst Kozub
Max Lorenz
Ramon Vinay
Ludwig Suthaus
==G/P Dave

GRNDPADAVE

2003-10-25 14:08:48 UTC

Date: 10/25/2003 8:47 AM Central Daylight Time
The only person on this list who was actually a heldentenor was Lorenz
though the others sang the Heldentenor repertoire. Richard

~~~~~~~
A distinction without a difference.

All the singers I named

Set Svanholm
Wolfgang Windgassen
Jon Vickers
Ernst Kozub
Max Lorenz
Ramon Vinay
Ludwig Suthaus

sang Ring operas and Tristan.

What more is necessary?

Apparently you have some metaphysical consideration that separates the
essential from the existential.

==G/P Dave

Richard Loeb

2003-10-25 16:24:58 UTC

Ah but there is a big difference - e.g. Lucine Amara sings Elsa on the
Leinsdorf Lohengrin recording - she sings all of the notes and she is
totally miscast since she does not have the colorful, full lyric soprano the
role calls for. The Heldentenor repertory calls for a voice that is
brilliant at the top (that knocks out Suthaus, Windgassen, Svanholm, Vinay)
, able to sustain the role without fudging, crooning or other tricks (there
goes Vickers) and able to sing the repertoire with a technique that allows
for a long career in the business (actaully that knocks out Lorenz). Just
because a singer is able to manage a role without dying does not mean they
are right for the role - was Helga Dernesch a Wagnerian soprano? 0f course
not - though she sang some Brunnhildes. Wolfgang Windgassen is an artist I
tremendously admire yet in happier times he would be singing Erik or the
lighter Wagner roles - his technique and savvy allowed him to sing the
Heldentenor roles mainly by saving himself for the big moments but the
actual singing rarely fit the bill. I'm not sure why you are not getting the
difference - nothing metephysical at all. Richard

Date: 10/25/2003 8:47 AM Central Daylight Time
The only person on this list who was actually a heldentenor was Lorenz
though the others sang the Heldentenor repertoire. Richard

~~~~~~~
A distinction without a difference.
All the singers I named

Set Svanholm
Wolfgang Windgassen
Jon Vickers
Ernst Kozub
Max Lorenz
Ramon Vinay
Ludwig Suthaus

sang Ring operas and Tristan.
What more is necessary?
Apparently you have some metaphysical consideration that separates the
essential from the existential.
==G/P Dave

GRNDPADAVE

2003-10-25 16:35:03 UTC

Date: 10/25/2003 11:24 AM Central Daylight Time
Ah but there is a big difference - e.g. Lucine Amara sings Elsa on the
Leinsdorf Lohengrin recording - she sings all of the notes and she is
totally miscast since she does not have the colorful, full lyric soprano the
role calls for.

~~~~~~~~~~~
Of what relevance is Lucine Amara, pinch-hitting for another singer, have to do
with a discussion of "heldentenors"?
~~~~~~~~~~~

The Heldentenor repertory calls for a voice that is
brilliant at the top (that knocks out Suthaus, Windgassen, Svanholm, >Vinay
, able to sustain the role without fudging, crooning or other tricks (there
goes Vickers) and able to sing the repertoire with a technique that allows
for a long career in the business (actaully that knocks out Lorenz). Just
because a singer is able to manage a role without dying does not mean they
are right for the role - was Helga Dernesch a Wagnerian soprano? 0f course
not - though she sang some Brunnhildes. Wolfgang Windgassen is an artist I
tremendously admire yet in happier times he would be singing Erik or the
lighter Wagner roles - his technique and savvy allowed him to sing the
Heldentenor roles mainly by saving himself for the big moments but the
actual singing rarely fit the bill. I'm not sure why you are not getting the
difference - nothing metephysical at all. Richard

~~~~~~~~~
All your daisy plucking does not eliminate the singers I mentioned.

All of them had all of the notes for the roles they sang.
They all appeared at Bayreuth.

I do not dispute Melchior's superiority. But that does not negate the
aptitudes of the others in singing the roles they did.

==G/P Dave

Richard Loeb

2003-10-25 16:42:44 UTC

Right - so lets say Tito Schipa decides to get up one day and sing
Tristan -he sings all of the notes, holds the notes the proper length (no
reason to think he couldn't) and gets through it - that means he is a
Heldentenor because he sang Tristan???. or closer to home listen to Fritz
Uhl do it on the Solti recording - he sings everything - is he a
Heldentenor??? Richard

~~~~~~~~~~~
Of what relevance is Lucine Amara, pinch-hitting for another singer, have to do
with a discussion of "heldentenors"?
~~~~~~~~~~~

The Heldentenor repertory calls for a voice that is
brilliant at the top (that knocks out Suthaus, Windgassen, Svanholm,

Vinay

, able to sustain the role without fudging, crooning or other tricks (there
goes Vickers) and able to sing the repertoire with a technique that allows
for a long career in the business (actaully that knocks out Lorenz). Just
because a singer is able to manage a role without dying does not mean they
are right for the role - was Helga Dernesch a Wagnerian soprano? 0f course
not - though she sang some Brunnhildes. Wolfgang Windgassen is an artist I
tremendously admire yet in happier times he would be singing Erik or the
lighter Wagner roles - his technique and savvy allowed him to sing the
Heldentenor roles mainly by saving himself for the big moments but the
actual singing rarely fit the bill. I'm not sure why you are not getting the
difference - nothing metephysical at all. Richard

~~~~~~~~~
All your daisy plucking does not eliminate the singers I mentioned.
All of them had all of the notes for the roles they sang.
They all appeared at Bayreuth.
I do not dispute Melchior's superiority. But that does not negate the
aptitudes of the others in singing the roles they did.
==G/P Dave

donpaolo

2003-10-25 18:28:13 UTC

This remonds me of the old Myron Cohen routine, about a father's reaction to
his son who dressed like a sailing skipper, which went something like: "To
your mamma you're a captain, to your pappa you're a captain; but to a
captain, you ain't no captain".

So, it follows, Maestro Lane & Richard Loeb are quite correct in that
basically there are no more heldon tenors in the true sense since Melchior
(although I would debate Vickers' exclusion) & that one does not qualify for
the designation simply because one dons the costume & manages to (barely)
get through a role or two without experiencing a fatal cardiac arrhythmia or
CVA.

DonPaolo

Post by Richard Loeb
Right - so lets say Tito Schipa decides to get up one day and sing
Tristan -he sings all of the notes, holds the notes the proper length (no
reason to think he couldn't) and gets through it - that means he is a
Heldentenor because he sang Tristan???. or closer to home listen to Fritz
Uhl do it on the Solti recording - he sings everything - is he a
Heldentenor??? Richard

soprano

role calls for.

~~~~~~~~~~~
Of what relevance is Lucine Amara, pinch-hitting for another singer,

have

Post by Richard Loeb
to do

Post by GRNDPADAVE
with a discussion of "heldentenors"?
~~~~~~~~~~~

The Heldentenor repertory calls for a voice that is
brilliant at the top (that knocks out Suthaus, Windgassen, Svanholm,

Vinay

, able to sustain the role without fudging, crooning or other tricks

(there

goes Vickers) and able to sing the repertoire with a technique that

allows

for a long career in the business (actaully that knocks out Lorenz). Just
because a singer is able to manage a role without dying does not mean

they

are right for the role - was Helga Dernesch a Wagnerian soprano? 0f

course

not - though she sang some Brunnhildes. Wolfgang Windgassen is an

artist

Post by Richard Loeb
I

tremendously admire yet in happier times he would be singing Erik or the
lighter Wagner roles - his technique and savvy allowed him to sing the
Heldentenor roles mainly by saving himself for the big moments but the
actual singing rarely fit the bill. I'm not sure why you are not

getting

difference - nothing metephysical at all. Richard

~~~~~~~~~
All your daisy plucking does not eliminate the singers I mentioned.
All of them had all of the notes for the roles they sang.
They all appeared at Bayreuth.
I do not dispute Melchior's superiority. But that does not negate the
aptitudes of the others in singing the roles they did.
==G/P Dave

Richard Loeb

2003-10-25 18:31:03 UTC

Right! Richard

Post by donpaolo
This remonds me of the old Myron Cohen routine, about a father's reaction to
his son who dressed like a sailing skipper, which went something like: "To
your mamma you're a captain, to your pappa you're a captain; but to a
captain, you ain't no captain".
So, it follows, Maestro Lane & Richard Loeb are quite correct in that
basically there are no more heldon tenors in the true sense since Melchior
(although I would debate Vickers' exclusion) & that one does not qualify for
the designation simply because one dons the costume & manages to (barely)
get through a role or two without experiencing a fatal cardiac arrhythmia or
CVA.
DonPaolo

soprano

role calls for.

~~~~~~~~~~~
Of what relevance is Lucine Amara, pinch-hitting for another singer,

have

Post by Richard Loeb
to do

Post by GRNDPADAVE
with a discussion of "heldentenors"?
~~~~~~~~~~~

The Heldentenor repertory calls for a voice that is
brilliant at the top (that knocks out Suthaus, Windgassen, Svanholm,

Vinay

, able to sustain the role without fudging, crooning or other tricks

(there

goes Vickers) and able to sing the repertoire with a technique that

allows

for a long career in the business (actaully that knocks out Lorenz).

Just

because a singer is able to manage a role without dying does not mean

they

are right for the role - was Helga Dernesch a Wagnerian soprano? 0f

course

not - though she sang some Brunnhildes. Wolfgang Windgassen is an

artist

Post by Richard Loeb
I

tremendously admire yet in happier times he would be singing Erik or

the

lighter Wagner roles - his technique and savvy allowed him to sing the
Heldentenor roles mainly by saving himself for the big moments but the
actual singing rarely fit the bill. I'm not sure why you are not

getting

difference - nothing metephysical at all. Richard

~~~~~~~~~
All your daisy plucking does not eliminate the singers I mentioned.
All of them had all of the notes for the roles they sang.
They all appeared at Bayreuth.
I do not dispute Melchior's superiority. But that does not negate the
aptitudes of the others in singing the roles they did.
==G/P Dave

Jonathan Sydenham

2003-10-27 13:16:29 UTC

I would also debate the Vickers exclusion apart from the fact that he never
sang Siegfried.
Jonathan

Post by Richard Loeb
Right! Richard

Post by donpaolo
This remonds me of the old Myron Cohen routine, about a father's

reaction

Post by Richard Loeb
to

Post by donpaolo
his son who dressed like a sailing skipper, which went something like: "To
your mamma you're a captain, to your pappa you're a captain; but to a
captain, you ain't no captain".
So, it follows, Maestro Lane & Richard Loeb are quite correct in that
basically there are no more heldon tenors in the true sense since Melchior
(although I would debate Vickers' exclusion) & that one does not qualify

for

Post by donpaolo
the designation simply because one dons the costume & manages to (barely)
get through a role or two without experiencing a fatal cardiac

arrhythmia

Post by Richard Loeb
or

Post by donpaolo
CVA.
DonPaolo

Post by Richard Loeb
Right - so lets say Tito Schipa decides to get up one day and sing
Tristan -he sings all of the notes, holds the notes the proper length

(no

Post by Richard Loeb
reason to think he couldn't) and gets through it - that means he is a
Heldentenor because he sang Tristan???. or closer to home listen to

Fritz

Post by Richard Loeb
Uhl do it on the Solti recording - he sings everything - is he a
Heldentenor??? Richard

Date: 10/25/2003 11:24 AM Central Daylight Time
Ah but there is a big difference - e.g. Lucine Amara sings Elsa on

the

Leinsdorf Lohengrin recording - she sings all of the notes and she is
totally miscast since she does not have the colorful, full lyric

soprano

role calls for.

~~~~~~~~~~~
Of what relevance is Lucine Amara, pinch-hitting for another singer,

have

Post by Richard Loeb
to do

Post by GRNDPADAVE
with a discussion of "heldentenors"?
~~~~~~~~~~~

The Heldentenor repertory calls for a voice that is
brilliant at the top (that knocks out Suthaus, Windgassen, Svanholm,

Vinay

, able to sustain the role without fudging, crooning or other tricks

(there

goes Vickers) and able to sing the repertoire with a technique that

allows

for a long career in the business (actaully that knocks out Lorenz).

Just

because a singer is able to manage a role without dying does not mean

they

are right for the role - was Helga Dernesch a Wagnerian soprano? 0f

course

not - though she sang some Brunnhildes. Wolfgang Windgassen is an

artist

Post by Richard Loeb
I

tremendously admire yet in happier times he would be singing Erik or

the

lighter Wagner roles - his technique and savvy allowed him to sing

the

Heldentenor roles mainly by saving himself for the big moments but

the

actual singing rarely fit the bill. I'm not sure why you are not

getting

difference - nothing metephysical at all. Richard

~~~~~~~~~
All your daisy plucking does not eliminate the singers I mentioned.
All of them had all of the notes for the roles they sang.
They all appeared at Bayreuth.
I do not dispute Melchior's superiority. But that does not negate the
aptitudes of the others in singing the roles they did.
==G/P Dave

Stephen Worth

2003-10-26 00:54:49 UTC

Post by Richard Loeb
The Heldentenor repertory calls for a voice that is
brilliant at the top (that knocks out Suthaus, Windgassen, Svanholm, Vinay)
, able to sustain the role without fudging, crooning or other tricks (there
goes Vickers) and able to sing the repertoire with a technique that allows
for a long career in the business

Alberto Remedios had a ringing top and could sing without fudging. He
wasn't Melchior, but he was a heldentenor.

See ya
Steve

--
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VIP RECORDS: Rare 78 rpm recordings on CD in great sound
20s Dance Bands - Swing - Opera - Classical - Vaudeville - Ragtime
FREE MP3s OF COMPLETE SONGS http://www.vintageip.com/records/

J.Venning

2003-10-26 05:07:21 UTC

Post by Stephen Worth
Alberto Remedios had a ringing top and could sing without fudging. He
wasn't Melchior, but he was a heldentenor.
See ya
Steve

Only when he sang it (the top) on its own. Sorry to disagree, but I know
Remedios very well, having sung at ENO for 5 seasons in the first half of
the 70s. He had what must be the most beautiful tenor voice in the English
opera scene, and was used constantly as a Wagnerian tenor, but it was a dark
lyrico spinto, and his constantly "widening" his vocal production to suit
the Wagner roles cost him his top - he had to squeeze and force out anything
above an A flat. The only non-Wagner role he sang when I was at ENO was Des
Grieux in Massenet's "Manon", and he was very uncomfortable with it; he told
me that they should have kept him with the bear skins instead of giving him
the fine silk.
J.

william d. kasimer

2003-10-27 13:58:33 UTC

So if those are your criteria, who else fits into your category of
"Heldentenor"?

Post by Richard Loeb
Just because a singer is able to manage a role without dying does not

mean >they are right for the role

And just because a singer fits the description of "Heldentenor", it
doesn't have to mean that they're any good. Personally, I think that
several of the singers you dismiss above - Suthaus, Svanholm, Vickers,
Lorenz - fit the category quite nicely, even if they're imperfect
singers. And I can think of a number of much worse singers fitting
the category, whom I hope that I never, ever have to hear again.

Bill

Terrymelin

2003-10-25 18:36:52 UTC

Post by GRNDPADAVE
sang Ring operas and Tristan.
What more is necessary?
Apparently you have some metaphysical consideration that separates the
essential from the existential.

Just because you sang a role doesn't make you a "heldentenor." Ethel Merman
could have sung Siegfried and she wouldn't have been a heldentenor.

Terry Ellsworth

donpaolo

2003-10-25 18:42:58 UTC

Too bad Jerry Hadley never considered this fach..........

DonP.

Post by Terrymelin

Post by GRNDPADAVE
sang Ring operas and Tristan.
What more is necessary?
Apparently you have some metaphysical consideration that separates the
essential from the existential.

Just because you sang a role doesn't make you a "heldentenor." Ethel Merman
could have sung Siegfried and she wouldn't have been a heldentenor.
Terry Ellsworth

GRNDPADAVE

2003-10-25 21:28:18 UTC

Post by Terrymelin
Just because you sang a role doesn't make you a "heldentenor." Ethel Merman
could have sung Siegfried and she wouldn't have been a heldentenor.
Terry Ellsworth

~~~~~~~~~
*Could have* is not the same as *did*.

All the tenors I mentioned sang leading tenor roles in TRISTAN or DER RING at
Bayreuth and other places. Not just *could have* but *did* !

The problem in this discussion is using the term "actual" or "real" to mean
something other than simply "best."

Melchior was the best, by most accounts.

But many tenors have essayed his roles in quite creditable a manner.

Terry is as usual evasive and (in this case) downright silly in his argument.

==G/P Dave

Richard Loeb

2003-10-25 22:02:17 UTC

"Terry is as usual evasive and (in this case) downright silly in his
argument.
Dave - no he isn't and you are starting to look foolish. The fact that
someone sings at Bayreuth means absolutely nothing (I have been there many
times and I know). The discussion is whether a singer "negotiating" a
Heldentenor role necessarily makes him a Heldentenor - the answer is no. The
question again - Fritz Uhl sang Tristan on the Solti recording - was he a
Heldentenor??? Rene Kollo sand Tristan and Siegfried at Bayreuth and other
places - was he a Heldentenor? - no he was a good sized lyric tenor who was
able to sing those roles with an increasingly unpleasant sound exhibiting
none of the Heldentenor characteristics - can you actually believe that any
tenor who sings Siegfried is always a Heldentenor???. The same question goes
for any role in any repertoire. Come on Dave - you cannot be that dense
Richard

Post by Terrymelin
Just because you sang a role doesn't make you a "heldentenor." Ethel Merman
could have sung Siegfried and she wouldn't have been a heldentenor.
Terry Ellsworth

~~~~~~~~~
*Could have* is not the same as *did*.
All the tenors I mentioned sang leading tenor roles in TRISTAN or DER RING at
Bayreuth and other places. Not just *could have* but *did* !
The problem in this discussion is using the term "actual" or "real" to mean
something other than simply "best."
Melchior was the best, by most accounts.
But many tenors have essayed his roles in quite creditable a manner.
"Terry is as usual evasive and (in this case) downright silly in his

argument.

Post by GRNDPADAVE
==G/P Dave

gerberk

2003-10-27 09:07:43 UTC

Kollo was great and superb when he was younger but unfortunately he made the
same mistakes as so many.A Tristan of 60 and Gwynneth Jones as a 60 year old
Isolde it just doesn't work and its a little ridiculous.Isolde and Tristan
should be young

Post by Richard Loeb
"Terry is as usual evasive and (in this case) downright silly in his
argument.
Dave - no he isn't and you are starting to look foolish. The fact that
someone sings at Bayreuth means absolutely nothing (I have been there many
times and I know). The discussion is whether a singer "negotiating" a
Heldentenor role necessarily makes him a Heldentenor - the answer is no. The
question again - Fritz Uhl sang Tristan on the Solti recording - was he a
Heldentenor??? Rene Kollo sand Tristan and Siegfried at Bayreuth and other
places - was he a Heldentenor? - no he was a good sized lyric tenor who was
able to sing those roles with an increasingly unpleasant sound exhibiting
none of the Heldentenor characteristics - can you actually believe that any
tenor who sings Siegfried is always a Heldentenor???. The same question goes
for any role in any repertoire. Come on Dave - you cannot be that dense
Richard

Post by Terrymelin
Just because you sang a role doesn't make you a "heldentenor." Ethel

Merman

Post by Terrymelin
could have sung Siegfried and she wouldn't have been a heldentenor.
Terry Ellsworth

~~~~~~~~~
*Could have* is not the same as *did*.
All the tenors I mentioned sang leading tenor roles in TRISTAN or DER

RING

Post by Richard Loeb
at

Post by GRNDPADAVE
Bayreuth and other places. Not just *could have* but *did* !
The problem in this discussion is using the term "actual" or "real" to

mean

Post by GRNDPADAVE
something other than simply "best."
Melchior was the best, by most accounts.
But many tenors have essayed his roles in quite creditable a manner.
"Terry is as usual evasive and (in this case) downright silly in his

argument.

Post by GRNDPADAVE
==G/P Dave

Leonard Tillman

2003-10-26 07:58:24 UTC

Ethel Merman could have sung Siegfried and
she wouldn't have been a heldentenor.

Then, her *not* having sung Siegfried was the secret of her mighty
heldentenor sound?

LT
"Whose cruel idea was it for the word 'lisp' to have a 's' in it?" -- A.
"Nonny" Muss.

J.Venning

2003-10-25 14:28:36 UTC

Post by GRNDPADAVE
But there have been other heldentenors since the Great Dane.
Set Svanholm
Wolfgang Windgassen
Jon Vickers
Ernst Kozub
Max Lorenz
Ramon Vinay
Ludwig Suthaus
==G/P Dave

I would personally add Peter Hofmann and Ben Hepner to that list, Dave.
J.

Mark Stenroos

2003-10-26 16:09:56 UTC

Post by Ken B Lane
After MELCHIOR, there's been NO real heldentenor on world stages!!!

I assume the poster is including Kenneth B Lane in the above statement.

Jeffrey Meyer

2003-10-27 06:53:49 UTC

You?
--
Jeffrey

Post by Ken B Lane
After MELCHIOR, there's been NO real heldentenor on world stages!!!
I am training singers whom I hope will contribute to the survival of vocally
properly represented Wagner music dramas, not scat-singing or barking.
Kenneth Lane, heldentenor
Director, The Festspielhaus of Boonton
418A Main Street, Boonton, NJ 07005-0172
Website: www.WagnerOpera.com [downloadable main auditorium Carnegie Hall my
performances of Wagner and high Cs, "Samples of Kenneth lLane's singing"]
(973) 335-0111

Alan Watkins

2003-10-27 22:56:19 UTC

I cannot speak about heldentenors for I am not sure what it means
other than "heroic voice".

As a teenager, I once played the timpani for Bjoerling in Nessum Dorma
at a charity concert and was amazed when he rode over the top of me.
I have no idea whether that is a heldentenor or not but I have yet to
hear it replicated, 40 plus years on.

Normally, I have to make allowances.

Kind regards,
Alan M. Watkins

gggg gggg

2023-02-06 00:39:05 UTC