Discussion:
Italian Conductors
(too old to reply)
REG
2005-04-25 11:20:39 UTC
Permalink
Coming out of some of the messages that have been written in the past couple
of days, I'd be curious about how you 'rate' the various Italian conductors
of the 50s through the 70s. I guess a "list" is ok if it has meaning to you
(that is, in some kind of order, although of course everyone has relative
strengths and weaknesses even within the Italian repertoire). In particular,
I ask because I always have difficulty "placing" Alberto Erede - I tend to
think of him as a routinnier, with little of particular inspiration in his
work, and I always have difficulty with Serafin.The top of my list is Gui.

Remember, to the extent you can, the issue is conducting....not how good a
vocal coach a conductor was, for example, but in terms of the final "end
product" of the performances they led. I know the technical elements aren't
entirely separate, but they are somewhat distinguishable....I think.

Best
g***@aol.com
2005-04-25 12:49:28 UTC
Permalink
I am inclined to rate Giulini at the top of my list.

The recordings of his I treasure most are:
(1) Don Carlo
(2) L'Italiana in Algeri
(3) Don Giovanni
(4) Le Nozze di Figaro
(5) Falstaff

Claudio Abbado and Riccardo Muti are favorites of mine especially for
their recordings of Verdi's Macbeth and Aida. Abbado led a fine Simon
Boccanegra although I have come to enjoy Gavazzeni's more extroverted
approach to this music.

I rate Gianandrea Gavazzeni highly, principally for his masterful
Madama Butterfly with the cast of De los Angeles, Di Stefano and Gobbi.


Gavazzeni's tempi are more vivid that most other conductors and he
never lets this opera become syruppy (as Von Karajan does).

I enjoy the work of Antonini Votto, especially his La Boheme with
Callas and Di Stefano.

I rather like Erede (for his Otello and Barber of Seville) and Fausto
Cleva (for La Wally)

Also high on my list although not always to my liking is Francesco
Molinari-Pradelli: especially for his La Rondine (sparkling) and Simon
Boccanegra.

Silvio Varviso made some excellent recordings of Rossini operas.

As for Gui, I enjoy his Nozze di Figaro.

Serafin provided brilliant recordings of Cavalleria Rusticana and
Pagliacci and a first rate Verdi Requiem (1938).

On the less than positive side, imho, are the likes of Gabriele
Santini, Nello Santi, Nino Verchi. All seem too difffident in scores
that cry out for decisiveness.

Does Arturo Toscanini qualify? His 1950's broadcasts of Falstaff and
Ballo belong in every Verdi lover's library.

==G/P Dave
a***@aol.com
2005-04-25 13:12:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by g***@aol.com
I am inclined to rate Giulini at the top of my list.
(1) Don Carlo
(2) L'Italiana in Algeri
(3) Don Giovanni
(4) Le Nozze di Figaro
(5) Falstaff
Claudio Abbado and Riccardo Muti are favorites of mine especially for
their recordings of Verdi's Macbeth and Aida. Abbado led a fine Simon
Boccanegra although I have come to enjoy Gavazzeni's more extroverted
approach to this music.
I rate Gianandrea Gavazzeni highly, principally for his masterful
Madama Butterfly with the cast of De los Angeles, Di Stefano and Gobbi.
Gavazzeni's tempi are more vivid that most other conductors and he
never lets this opera become syruppy (as Von Karajan does).
I enjoy the work of Antonini Votto, especially his La Boheme with
Callas and Di Stefano.
I rather like Erede (for his Otello and Barber of Seville) and Fausto
Cleva (for La Wally)
Also high on my list although not always to my liking is Francesco
Molinari-Pradelli: especially for his La Rondine (sparkling) and Simon
Boccanegra.
Silvio Varviso made some excellent recordings of Rossini operas.
As for Gui, I enjoy his Nozze di Figaro.
Serafin provided brilliant recordings of Cavalleria Rusticana and
Pagliacci and a first rate Verdi Requiem (1938).
On the less than positive side, imho, are the likes of Gabriele
Santini, Nello Santi, Nino Verchi. All seem too difffident in scores
that cry out for decisiveness.
Does Arturo Toscanini qualify? His 1950's broadcasts of Falstaff and
Ballo belong in every Verdi lover's library.
==G/P Dave
I don't have the knowledge or the comparisons to do a list of that type
but I would certainly think Giulini should be up there somewhere near
the top. Serafin would certainly have to be included as well, I would
think.

Of an earlier age - although I don't have personal knowledge of it - I
have seen it written that Franco Ferrara was very good and I've seen
good reviews about Patane as well. Patane apparently conducted from
memory, having committed something like 200 operas to memory.

One of his conducting pupils, Kazushi Ono, told this story about him in
an interview:

"Patanè was a genius. Unfortunately he died when he was 57. He never
used a score, memorized 200 operas, emotionally rather than
mathematically. There's a story that he was doing Adriana Lecouvreur,
and asked the soprano not to use rubato on the phrase: 'Io sono l'umile
ancella del genio creatore'. The first singer was Freni and she did
exactly as he wanted. But when he came to perform with the second cast,
the soprano unwittingly put in the rubato. The maestro flung down his
baton, the orchestra stopped, and the soprano apologized profusely.
Patanè accepted her apology, gave the orchestra the precise number of
the bar to start on, the text to the soprano and re-started the opera
all without a score!

He was passionate! I learnt all about Verdi and Puccini from him. He
was the last of the great Italian conductors: Toscanini, Victor de
Sabata, Tullio Serafin and Patanè!"


Kind regards,
Alan M. Watkins
Jon E. Szostak, Sr.
2005-04-25 19:29:31 UTC
Permalink
Alan: Yeah...that pretty much says it for me too about Patanè. My order
would be - Patanè, Giulini, Toscanini, Victor de Sabata, Tulia Serafin.
--
Jon E. Szostak, Sr.
Post by g***@aol.com
I am inclined to rate Giulini at the top of my list.
(1) Don Carlo
(2) L'Italiana in Algeri
(3) Don Giovanni
(4) Le Nozze di Figaro
(5) Falstaff
"Patanè was a genius. Unfortunately he died when he was 57. He never
used a score, memorized 200 operas, emotionally rather than
mathematically. There's a story that he was doing Adriana Lecouvreur,
and asked the soprano not to use rubato on the phrase: 'Io sono l'umile
ancella del genio creatore'. The first singer was Freni and she did
exactly as he wanted. But when he came to perform with the second cast,
the soprano unwittingly put in the rubato. The maestro flung down his
baton, the orchestra stopped, and the soprano apologized profusely.
Patanè accepted her apology, gave the orchestra the precise number of
the bar to start on, the text to the soprano and re-started the opera
all without a score!

He was passionate! I learnt all about Verdi and Puccini from him. He
was the last of the great Italian conductors: Toscanini, Victor de
Sabata, Tullio Serafin and Patanè!"


Kind regards,
Alan M. Watkins
a***@aol.com
2005-04-25 20:50:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jon E. Szostak, Sr.
Alan: Yeah...that pretty much says it for me too about Patanè. My order
would be - Patanè, Giulini, Toscanini, Victor de Sabata, Tulia Serafin.
--
Jon E. Szostak, Sr.
He's not famous - and I am not sure that Patane is either - but Bohumil
Gregor can do that.

His party piece is Rusalka, rehearsed and conducted without a score.
Stops you and says: "From four before L please. Winds I don't need you
for the moment." He also conducts Cunning Little Vixen without a
score, ditto Boheme.

:):)

Kind regards,
Alan M. Watkins
Luca Logi
2005-04-26 15:12:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by a***@aol.com
He's not famous - and I am not sure that Patane is either - but Bohumil
Gregor can do that.
His party piece is Rusalka, rehearsed and conducted without a score.
Stops you and says: "From four before L please. Winds I don't need you
for the moment."
Well, Mitropoulous conducted and reharsed Wozzeck without a score.
--
Luca Logi - Firenze - Italy e-mail: ***@dada.it
Home page: http://www.angelfire.com/ar/archivarius
(musicologia pratica)
Jon E. Szostak, Sr.
2005-04-26 15:33:21 UTC
Permalink
Luca: You mention Mitropoulos...and it reminds me of the fact that I liked
everything he ever recorded. I was particularly fond of his Prokofiev
'Romeo and Juliet' ballet excerpts and 'Elektra' or was that 'Salome'? I
don't fully recall.

I seem to remember that the NYP musicians were somewhat fond of Mitropoulos.
Heaven knows he was a truly great conductor.
--
Jon E. Szostak, Sr.
Post by Luca Logi
Post by a***@aol.com
He's not famous - and I am not sure that Patane is either - but Bohumil
Gregor can do that.
His party piece is Rusalka, rehearsed and conducted without a score.
Stops you and says: "From four before L please. Winds I don't need you
for the moment."
Well, Mitropoulous conducted and reharsed Wozzeck without a score.
--
Home page: http://www.angelfire.com/ar/archivarius
(musicologia pratica)
REG
2005-04-27 02:18:18 UTC
Permalink
If you ask David Gable, he'll tell you that Eileen Farrell sounds like she
sang it without ever looking at the score!
Post by Luca Logi
Post by a***@aol.com
He's not famous - and I am not sure that Patane is either - but Bohumil
Gregor can do that.
His party piece is Rusalka, rehearsed and conducted without a score.
Stops you and says: "From four before L please. Winds I don't need you
for the moment."
Well, Mitropoulous conducted and reharsed Wozzeck without a score.
--
Home page: http://www.angelfire.com/ar/archivarius
(musicologia pratica)
REG
2005-04-26 00:44:10 UTC
Permalink
Sills tells a great story about singing a great Patene story. He was
conducting Traviata with her, and apparently she was intent on having her
way with a more virtuosic tempo for Semper Libra. At the next performance,
he apparently gave her a speed test she never forgot....he must have been a
very fiery guy.
Post by g***@aol.com
I am inclined to rate Giulini at the top of my list.
(1) Don Carlo
(2) L'Italiana in Algeri
(3) Don Giovanni
(4) Le Nozze di Figaro
(5) Falstaff
Claudio Abbado and Riccardo Muti are favorites of mine especially for
their recordings of Verdi's Macbeth and Aida. Abbado led a fine Simon
Boccanegra although I have come to enjoy Gavazzeni's more extroverted
approach to this music.
I rate Gianandrea Gavazzeni highly, principally for his masterful
Madama Butterfly with the cast of De los Angeles, Di Stefano and Gobbi.
Gavazzeni's tempi are more vivid that most other conductors and he
never lets this opera become syruppy (as Von Karajan does).
I enjoy the work of Antonini Votto, especially his La Boheme with
Callas and Di Stefano.
I rather like Erede (for his Otello and Barber of Seville) and Fausto
Cleva (for La Wally)
Also high on my list although not always to my liking is Francesco
Molinari-Pradelli: especially for his La Rondine (sparkling) and Simon
Boccanegra.
Silvio Varviso made some excellent recordings of Rossini operas.
As for Gui, I enjoy his Nozze di Figaro.
Serafin provided brilliant recordings of Cavalleria Rusticana and
Pagliacci and a first rate Verdi Requiem (1938).
On the less than positive side, imho, are the likes of Gabriele
Santini, Nello Santi, Nino Verchi. All seem too difffident in scores
that cry out for decisiveness.
Does Arturo Toscanini qualify? His 1950's broadcasts of Falstaff and
Ballo belong in every Verdi lover's library.
==G/P Dave
I don't have the knowledge or the comparisons to do a list of that type
but I would certainly think Giulini should be up there somewhere near
the top. Serafin would certainly have to be included as well, I would
think.

Of an earlier age - although I don't have personal knowledge of it - I
have seen it written that Franco Ferrara was very good and I've seen
good reviews about Patane as well. Patane apparently conducted from
memory, having committed something like 200 operas to memory.

One of his conducting pupils, Kazushi Ono, told this story about him in
an interview:

"Patanè was a genius. Unfortunately he died when he was 57. He never
used a score, memorized 200 operas, emotionally rather than
mathematically. There's a story that he was doing Adriana Lecouvreur,
and asked the soprano not to use rubato on the phrase: 'Io sono l'umile
ancella del genio creatore'. The first singer was Freni and she did
exactly as he wanted. But when he came to perform with the second cast,
the soprano unwittingly put in the rubato. The maestro flung down his
baton, the orchestra stopped, and the soprano apologized profusely.
Patanè accepted her apology, gave the orchestra the precise number of
the bar to start on, the text to the soprano and re-started the opera
all without a score!

He was passionate! I learnt all about Verdi and Puccini from him. He
was the last of the great Italian conductors: Toscanini, Victor de
Sabata, Tullio Serafin and Patanè!"


Kind regards,
Alan M. Watkins
REG
2005-04-26 00:42:01 UTC
Permalink
Thanks for this thought-provoking list. I must say that, mentally, I was
excluding Giulini and Abbado and Muti, Giulini because he seemed
incontestably hors concors, and Abbado and Muti because they came later, but
I was unclear, and would certainly place Giulini close to the top. I'd
forgotten Gavazzeni, and when I heard him in his one live outing at the MET
(Trovatore with Scotto and the Pav), he was remarkable in terms of getting a
lyric sound from the orchestra. Cleva I heard very late in his day at the
MET, and he was getting very slow and tired. Although it's not Italian, he
was in charge of a series of Don Giovannis that were so slow in the first
couple of performances that the singers spoke to him, and his tempi changed
radically in the next performance. For some reason, I always feel like
Varviso (is he really Italian?) is always in a rush to catch a train, but
maybe that's just the unfortunate result of his conducting with Suliotis.

Best
Post by g***@aol.com
I am inclined to rate Giulini at the top of my list.
(1) Don Carlo
(2) L'Italiana in Algeri
(3) Don Giovanni
(4) Le Nozze di Figaro
(5) Falstaff
Claudio Abbado and Riccardo Muti are favorites of mine especially for
their recordings of Verdi's Macbeth and Aida. Abbado led a fine Simon
Boccanegra although I have come to enjoy Gavazzeni's more extroverted
approach to this music.
I rate Gianandrea Gavazzeni highly, principally for his masterful
Madama Butterfly with the cast of De los Angeles, Di Stefano and Gobbi.
Gavazzeni's tempi are more vivid that most other conductors and he
never lets this opera become syruppy (as Von Karajan does).
I enjoy the work of Antonini Votto, especially his La Boheme with
Callas and Di Stefano.
I rather like Erede (for his Otello and Barber of Seville) and Fausto
Cleva (for La Wally)
Also high on my list although not always to my liking is Francesco
Molinari-Pradelli: especially for his La Rondine (sparkling) and Simon
Boccanegra.
Silvio Varviso made some excellent recordings of Rossini operas.
As for Gui, I enjoy his Nozze di Figaro.
Serafin provided brilliant recordings of Cavalleria Rusticana and
Pagliacci and a first rate Verdi Requiem (1938).
On the less than positive side, imho, are the likes of Gabriele
Santini, Nello Santi, Nino Verchi. All seem too difffident in scores
that cry out for decisiveness.
Does Arturo Toscanini qualify? His 1950's broadcasts of Falstaff and
Ballo belong in every Verdi lover's library.
==G/P Dave
Terry Simmons
2005-04-26 07:34:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by g***@aol.com
I am inclined to rate Giulini at the top of my list.
(1) Don Carlo
(2) L'Italiana in Algeri
(3) Don Giovanni
(4) Le Nozze di Figaro
(5) Falstaff
Claudio Abbado and Riccardo Muti are favorites of mine especially for
their recordings of Verdi's Macbeth and Aida. Abbado led a fine Simon
Boccanegra although I have come to enjoy Gavazzeni's more extroverted
approach to this music.
I rate Gianandrea Gavazzeni highly, principally for his masterful
Madama Butterfly with the cast of De los Angeles, Di Stefano and Gobbi.
Gavazzeni's tempi are more vivid that most other conductors and he
never lets this opera become syruppy (as Von Karajan does).
I enjoy the work of Antonini Votto, especially his La Boheme with
Callas and Di Stefano.
I rather like Erede (for his Otello and Barber of Seville) and Fausto
Cleva (for La Wally)
Also high on my list although not always to my liking is Francesco
Molinari-Pradelli: especially for his La Rondine (sparkling) and Simon
Boccanegra.
Silvio Varviso made some excellent recordings of Rossini operas.
As for Gui, I enjoy his Nozze di Figaro.
Serafin provided brilliant recordings of Cavalleria Rusticana and
Pagliacci and a first rate Verdi Requiem (1938).
On the less than positive side, imho, are the likes of Gabriele
Santini, Nello Santi, Nino Verchi. All seem too difffident in scores
that cry out for decisiveness.
Does Arturo Toscanini qualify? His 1950's broadcasts of Falstaff and
Ballo belong in every Verdi lover's library.
==G/P Dave
Don't forget Barbirolli.
--
Cheers!

Terry
dan tritter
2005-04-26 10:29:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by Terry Simmons
Post by g***@aol.com
I am inclined to rate Giulini at the top of my list.
(1) Don Carlo
(2) L'Italiana in Algeri
(3) Don Giovanni
(4) Le Nozze di Figaro
(5) Falstaff
Claudio Abbado and Riccardo Muti are favorites of mine especially for
their recordings of Verdi's Macbeth and Aida. Abbado led a fine Simon
Boccanegra although I have come to enjoy Gavazzeni's more extroverted
approach to this music.
I rate Gianandrea Gavazzeni highly, principally for his masterful
Madama Butterfly with the cast of De los Angeles, Di Stefano and Gobbi.
Gavazzeni's tempi are more vivid that most other conductors and he
never lets this opera become syruppy (as Von Karajan does).
I enjoy the work of Antonini Votto, especially his La Boheme with
Callas and Di Stefano.
I rather like Erede (for his Otello and Barber of Seville) and Fausto
Cleva (for La Wally)
Also high on my list although not always to my liking is Francesco
Molinari-Pradelli: especially for his La Rondine (sparkling) and Simon
Boccanegra.
Silvio Varviso made some excellent recordings of Rossini operas.
As for Gui, I enjoy his Nozze di Figaro.
Serafin provided brilliant recordings of Cavalleria Rusticana and
Pagliacci and a first rate Verdi Requiem (1938).
On the less than positive side, imho, are the likes of Gabriele
Santini, Nello Santi, Nino Verchi. All seem too difffident in scores
that cry out for decisiveness.
Does Arturo Toscanini qualify? His 1950's broadcasts of Falstaff and
Ballo belong in every Verdi lover's library.
==G/P Dave
Don't forget Barbirolli.
i don't. he was english.
Jon E. Szostak, Sr.
2005-04-26 12:12:14 UTC
Permalink
Wasn't Sir John Barbirolli English?
--
Jon E. Szostak, Sr.
Post by Terry Simmons
Post by g***@aol.com
I am inclined to rate Giulini at the top of my list.
(1) Don Carlo
(2) L'Italiana in Algeri
(3) Don Giovanni
(4) Le Nozze di Figaro
(5) Falstaff
Claudio Abbado and Riccardo Muti are favorites of mine especially for
their recordings of Verdi's Macbeth and Aida. Abbado led a fine Simon
Boccanegra although I have come to enjoy Gavazzeni's more extroverted
approach to this music.
I rate Gianandrea Gavazzeni highly, principally for his masterful
Madama Butterfly with the cast of De los Angeles, Di Stefano and Gobbi.
Gavazzeni's tempi are more vivid that most other conductors and he
never lets this opera become syruppy (as Von Karajan does).
I enjoy the work of Antonini Votto, especially his La Boheme with
Callas and Di Stefano.
I rather like Erede (for his Otello and Barber of Seville) and Fausto
Cleva (for La Wally)
Also high on my list although not always to my liking is Francesco
Molinari-Pradelli: especially for his La Rondine (sparkling) and Simon
Boccanegra.
Silvio Varviso made some excellent recordings of Rossini operas.
As for Gui, I enjoy his Nozze di Figaro.
Serafin provided brilliant recordings of Cavalleria Rusticana and
Pagliacci and a first rate Verdi Requiem (1938).
On the less than positive side, imho, are the likes of Gabriele
Santini, Nello Santi, Nino Verchi. All seem too difffident in scores
that cry out for decisiveness.
Does Arturo Toscanini qualify? His 1950's broadcasts of Falstaff and
Ballo belong in every Verdi lover's library.
==G/P Dave
Don't forget Barbirolli.
--
Cheers!
Terry
REG
2005-04-26 12:38:33 UTC
Permalink
Born within the sound of St Mary's bells, so that he was cockney, but his
father was Italian enough so that he played the cello (??) in some Verdi
primas....I think including Otello, but I could be wrong. It would be odd if
I were right on this, because Toscanini also played cello in the prima of
Otello.
Post by Jon E. Szostak, Sr.
Wasn't Sir John Barbirolli English?
--
Jon E. Szostak, Sr.
Post by Terry Simmons
Post by g***@aol.com
I am inclined to rate Giulini at the top of my list.
(1) Don Carlo
(2) L'Italiana in Algeri
(3) Don Giovanni
(4) Le Nozze di Figaro
(5) Falstaff
Claudio Abbado and Riccardo Muti are favorites of mine especially for
their recordings of Verdi's Macbeth and Aida. Abbado led a fine Simon
Boccanegra although I have come to enjoy Gavazzeni's more extroverted
approach to this music.
I rate Gianandrea Gavazzeni highly, principally for his masterful
Madama Butterfly with the cast of De los Angeles, Di Stefano and Gobbi.
Gavazzeni's tempi are more vivid that most other conductors and he
never lets this opera become syruppy (as Von Karajan does).
I enjoy the work of Antonini Votto, especially his La Boheme with
Callas and Di Stefano.
I rather like Erede (for his Otello and Barber of Seville) and Fausto
Cleva (for La Wally)
Also high on my list although not always to my liking is Francesco
Molinari-Pradelli: especially for his La Rondine (sparkling) and Simon
Boccanegra.
Silvio Varviso made some excellent recordings of Rossini operas.
As for Gui, I enjoy his Nozze di Figaro.
Serafin provided brilliant recordings of Cavalleria Rusticana and
Pagliacci and a first rate Verdi Requiem (1938).
On the less than positive side, imho, are the likes of Gabriele
Santini, Nello Santi, Nino Verchi. All seem too difffident in scores
that cry out for decisiveness.
Does Arturo Toscanini qualify? His 1950's broadcasts of Falstaff and
Ballo belong in every Verdi lover's library.
==G/P Dave
Don't forget Barbirolli.
--
Cheers!
Terry
La Donna Mobile
2005-04-26 14:10:22 UTC
Permalink
It was probably an 50-strong 'cello section, a little bit like that old
Met that magically had a capacity of 20,000 for certain key historic
events..
Post by REG
Born within the sound of St Mary's bells, so that he was cockney, but his
father was Italian enough so that he played the cello (??) in some Verdi
primas....I think including Otello, but I could be wrong. It would be odd if
I were right on this, because Toscanini also played cello in the prima of
Otello.
Post by Jon E. Szostak, Sr.
Wasn't Sir John Barbirolli English?
--
Jon E. Szostak, Sr.
Post by Terry Simmons
Post by g***@aol.com
I am inclined to rate Giulini at the top of my list.
(1) Don Carlo
(2) L'Italiana in Algeri
(3) Don Giovanni
(4) Le Nozze di Figaro
(5) Falstaff
Claudio Abbado and Riccardo Muti are favorites of mine especially for
their recordings of Verdi's Macbeth and Aida. Abbado led a fine Simon
Boccanegra although I have come to enjoy Gavazzeni's more extroverted
approach to this music.
I rate Gianandrea Gavazzeni highly, principally for his masterful
Madama Butterfly with the cast of De los Angeles, Di Stefano and Gobbi.
Gavazzeni's tempi are more vivid that most other conductors and he
never lets this opera become syruppy (as Von Karajan does).
I enjoy the work of Antonini Votto, especially his La Boheme with
Callas and Di Stefano.
I rather like Erede (for his Otello and Barber of Seville) and Fausto
Cleva (for La Wally)
Also high on my list although not always to my liking is Francesco
Molinari-Pradelli: especially for his La Rondine (sparkling) and Simon
Boccanegra.
Silvio Varviso made some excellent recordings of Rossini operas.
As for Gui, I enjoy his Nozze di Figaro.
Serafin provided brilliant recordings of Cavalleria Rusticana and
Pagliacci and a first rate Verdi Requiem (1938).
On the less than positive side, imho, are the likes of Gabriele
Santini, Nello Santi, Nino Verchi. All seem too difffident in scores
that cry out for decisiveness.
Does Arturo Toscanini qualify? His 1950's broadcasts of Falstaff and
Ballo belong in every Verdi lover's library.
==G/P Dave
Don't forget Barbirolli.
--
Cheers!
Terry
--
http://www.madmusingsof.me.uk/weblog/
http://www.geraldine-curtis.me.uk/photoblog/
w***@comcast.net
2005-04-26 14:44:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by La Donna Mobile
It was probably an 50-strong 'cello section, a little bit like that old
Met that magically had a capacity of 20,000 for certain key historic
events..
LOL!

Bill
REG
2005-04-27 02:17:28 UTC
Permalink
:)))

"La Donna Mobile" <***@REMOVEbrixton.fsworld.co.uk> wrote in message news:d4li4d$ous$***@nwrdmz02.dmz.ncs.ea.ibs-infra.bt.com...
It was probably an 50-strong 'cello section, a little bit like that old Met that magically had a capacity of 20,000 for certain key historic events..

REG wrote:
Born within the sound of St Mary's bells, so that he was cockney, but his
father was Italian enough so that he played the cello (??) in some Verdi
primas....I think including Otello, but I could be wrong. It would be odd if
I were right on this, because Toscanini also played cello in the prima of
Otello.


"Jon E. Szostak, Sr." <***@comcast.net> wrote in message news:NI2dnVD9Y_28rfPfRVn-***@giganews.com...
Wasn't Sir John Barbirolli English?
--
Jon E. Szostak, Sr.


"Terry Simmons" <***@tpgi.com.au> wrote in message news:tlsterry-***@dnews.tpgi.com.au...
In article <***@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com>,
***@aol.com wrote:

I am inclined to rate Giulini at the top of my list.

The recordings of his I treasure most are:
(1) Don Carlo
(2) L'Italiana in Algeri
(3) Don Giovanni
(4) Le Nozze di Figaro
(5) Falstaff

Claudio Abbado and Riccardo Muti are favorites of mine especially for
their recordings of Verdi's Macbeth and Aida. Abbado led a fine Simon
Boccanegra although I have come to enjoy Gavazzeni's more extroverted
approach to this music.

I rate Gianandrea Gavazzeni highly, principally for his masterful
Madama Butterfly with the cast of De los Angeles, Di Stefano and Gobbi.


Gavazzeni's tempi are more vivid that most other conductors and he
never lets this opera become syruppy (as Von Karajan does).

I enjoy the work of Antonini Votto, especially his La Boheme with
Callas and Di Stefano.

I rather like Erede (for his Otello and Barber of Seville) and Fausto
Cleva (for La Wally)

Also high on my list although not always to my liking is Francesco
Molinari-Pradelli: especially for his La Rondine (sparkling) and Simon
Boccanegra.

Silvio Varviso made some excellent recordings of Rossini operas.

As for Gui, I enjoy his Nozze di Figaro.

Serafin provided brilliant recordings of Cavalleria Rusticana and
Pagliacci and a first rate Verdi Requiem (1938).

On the less than positive side, imho, are the likes of Gabriele
Santini, Nello Santi, Nino Verchi. All seem too difffident in scores
that cry out for decisiveness.

Does Arturo Toscanini qualify? His 1950's broadcasts of Falstaff and
Ballo belong in every Verdi lover's library.

==G/P Dave
Don't forget Barbirolli.
--
Cheers!

Terry
--
http://www.madmusingsof.me.uk/weblog/
http://www.geraldine-curtis.me.uk/photoblog/
Aage Johansen
2005-04-25 18:53:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by REG
Coming out of some of the messages that have been written in the past couple
of days, I'd be curious about how you 'rate' the various Italian conductors
of the 50s through the 70s. I guess a "list" is ok if it has meaning to you
(that is, in some kind of order, although of course everyone has relative
strengths and weaknesses even within the Italian repertoire). In particular,
I ask because I always have difficulty "placing" Alberto Erede - I tend to
think of him as a routinnier, with little of particular inspiration in his
work, and I always have difficulty with Serafin.The top of my list is Gui.
Gui was great. Also, de Sabata (the little I've heard) - or is it "De
Sabata"...
Did Guido Cantelli do opera recordings?
--
Aage J.
g***@aol.com
2005-04-25 19:33:42 UTC
Permalink
Aage Johansen Apr 25, 11:53 am show options

Newsgroups: rec.music.opera
From: Aage Johansen <***@offline.no> - Find messages by this
author
Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2005 20:53:29 +0200
Local: Mon,Apr 25 2005 11:53 am
Subject: Re: Italian Conductors
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Post by REG
Coming out of some of the messages that have been written in the past couple
of days, I'd be curious about how you 'rate' the various Italian conductors
of the 50s through the 70s. I guess a "list" is ok if it has meaning to you
(that is, in some kind of order, although of course everyone has relative
strengths and weaknesses even within the Italian repertoire). In particular,
I ask because I always have difficulty "placing" Alberto Erede - I tend to
think of him as a routinnier, with little of particular inspiration in his
work, and I always have difficulty with Serafin.The top of my list is Gui.
Gui was great. Also, de Sabata (the little I've heard) - or is it "De
Sabata"...
Did Guido Cantelli do opera recordings?

--
Aage J.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
De Sabata's Tosca is my nominee for best opera recording ever.

The only Guido Cantelli opera recording I have found is that of Cosi
fan tutte.

This is from a live performance made at the Piccola Scala in Milan.

==G/P Dave
Mitchell Kaufman
2005-04-25 19:40:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by REG
Coming out of some of the messages that have been written in the past couple
of days, I'd be curious about how you 'rate' the various Italian conductors
of the 50s through the 70s. I guess a "list" is ok if it has meaning to you
(that is, in some kind of order, although of course everyone has relative
strengths and weaknesses even within the Italian repertoire). In particular,
I ask because I always have difficulty "placing" Alberto Erede - I tend to
think of him as a routinnier, with little of particular inspiration in his
work, and I always have difficulty with Serafin.The top of my list is Gui.
Aside from the usual suspects--de Sabata, Gui, Serafin, Toscanini,
Giulini--the most interesting Italian conductor for me is Antonio
Guarnieri. The recorded evidence is slim--I base my opinion solely on
the Cetra Francesca da Rimini--but utterly spectacular. The mixture of
intensity and relaxation (after Toscanini, the latter often gets short
shrift), the way in which he brings out the colors of the score, the
beautiful orchestral playing--these place him at the very top rung. The
lack of recordings may sometimes cause him to be ignored, but apparently
his reputation in the first half of the century was enormous, rivaling
in Italy that of Toscanini himself.

MK
d***@aol.com
2005-04-26 05:35:43 UTC
Permalink
Four conductors who would NOT make my list of "greatest Italian
conductors of the past century" are Giulini, Abbado, Muti, and Chailly,
although the only one I'd dismiss entirely would be Chailly. Giulini's
performances are generally too spineless for me. He lingers
expressively over the local detail at the expense of momentum. (A
friend of mine refers to Giulini as Goo-lini.) Performance after
performance by Giulini has passages that I admire, but there's often
insufficient momentum pressing on from one moment to the next, and way
too much flexibility in the projection of the global governing tempi
for my taste. His EMI Don Carlo is simply dull, deadly dull. I think
he's vastly overrated (in part because he looked like a conductor sent
from central casting and cultivated the image).

Abbado is generally very reliably solid, and he's much more likely to
catch fire live than in his solid but bland DGG recordings, but there
has never been anything terribly imaginative about his phrasing,
especially in Italian opera. I do very much like his (live) Vienna
Khovantschina on DGG and even his LSO Cenerentola and Barbiere, also on
DGG. Still, there are aspects of these Rossini pieces that largely
escape him, things for which you have to turn to somebody like Gui to
discover.

One conductor nobody has mentioned so far is Ettore Panizza, a mainstay
at the Met for many years. On the basis of my limited exposure to his
work, I'd rate Panizza very highly.

The "big name" Italian conductors I greatly admire boil down to two:
Gui, and with certain reservations, Toscanini. My reservations are the
usual ones: Toscanini's whipcrack performances tend toward the
monomaniacally overdriven. Still, all you have to do to see that he
still had a basically gorgeous Italianate sense of phrasing is to
compare him to Abbado or Muti. I don't agree with Mitch Kaufman that
they don't breathe, although they don't invariably breathe quite
enough. Better that than Giulini.

I also have the very greatest admiration for a whole host of Italian
so-called "routiniers," which simply means "conductors who made their
careers conducting Italian opera in the pits of opera houses rather
than conducting German music at the helm of symphony orchestras,"
including especially Antonino Votto and Francesco Molinari-Pradelli. I
never met a Votto performance I didn't like, including, for example,
the Fanciulla with Corelli and the Callas Vestale, both from La Scala.
Votto had all of Toscanini's virtues with none of his vices. Another
conductor in the Votto vein was Simonetto, whose Cetra Schicchi is
brilliantly conducted: he entirely avoids sentimentalizing "O, mio
babbino caro."

As for Molinari-Pradelli, he wasn't invariably "on," but even his
slackest performances reveal a wonderful sense of phrasing, and his
best performances--the Decca L'elisir with Gueden and Di Stefano, the
Philips Don Pasquale with Capecchi and Valdengo--will never be
surpassed.

I even find much to admire in Fausto Cleva. His RCA recording of Luisa
Miller and his Decca Wally are sensationally well conducted. Virtually
all of these guys are vastly underrated, and I've heard thrilling
performances lead by Previtali (the Gencer Vestale), Cillario (the
Gencer Caterina Cornaro), De Fabritiis (the Chicago Mefistofele with
Tebaldi), etc. etc. etc. I find Gabriele Santini a far more
distinctive and spirited conductor in the EMI Boccanegra than the
Abbado of the DGG Boccanegra. Whereas Santini provides an object
lesson in Italianate phrasing, Abbado is smooth, bland,
non-interventionist, and where there is a great disparity in tempi,
Santini's are invariably quicker.

Needless to say, there are performances by some of these conductors
that I actively dislike, including Previtali's studio Traviata with
Moffo, and there's very little from Alberto Erede that has impressed
me, but even in the case of Erede, there's at least one performance
that I quite like, his Decca Rigoletto with Gueden. I have certainly
never heard any performance from Abbado live or studio as distinctively
shaped.

I have ambivalent feelings about Gavazzeni that I don't have the energy
to attempt to characterize. Still, I do understand the enthusiasm of
others.

I have the depressing feeling that with the death of all the routiniers
of the 50's and 60's (and of Gui and Panizza and Toscanini), a whole
performance tradition has disappeared forever. I certainly haven't
heard anything from, say, Pappano, that can compare to the average
routinier-lead performance of the 50's and 60's.

-david gable
REG
2005-04-26 06:47:30 UTC
Permalink
Thanks for this...I think I feel a little different than you about Giulini,
but I am glad to see I'm not alone in my reluctance about Erede.

What this exercise has brought to mind, in terms of reading about your
lesser-known likes, is Maestro Bellezza (sp), the conductor of the EMI
Tabarro with Gobbi and Mas. In the opening bars alone, I at least get a
sense of the river going by (and thus, life going by) that I don't get in
any other recording of that work. I am not sure how much else he recorded,
but this performance is near the top of the pile.

I think Pannizza is going back a little far for the purposes of this
exercise, but if we went back that far I think I'd include Papi, who was, I
believe, Ponselle's favored conductor. I have a recollection, at least, of
hearing him on some live performances and thinking he was really first rate.
Post by d***@aol.com
Four conductors who would NOT make my list of "greatest Italian
conductors of the past century" are Giulini, Abbado, Muti, and Chailly,
although the only one I'd dismiss entirely would be Chailly. Giulini's
performances are generally too spineless for me. He lingers
expressively over the local detail at the expense of momentum. (A
friend of mine refers to Giulini as Goo-lini.) Performance after
performance by Giulini has passages that I admire, but there's often
insufficient momentum pressing on from one moment to the next, and way
too much flexibility in the projection of the global governing tempi
for my taste. His EMI Don Carlo is simply dull, deadly dull. I think
he's vastly overrated (in part because he looked like a conductor sent
from central casting and cultivated the image).
Abbado is generally very reliably solid, and he's much more likely to
catch fire live than in his solid but bland DGG recordings, but there
has never been anything terribly imaginative about his phrasing,
especially in Italian opera. I do very much like his (live) Vienna
Khovantschina on DGG and even his LSO Cenerentola and Barbiere, also on
DGG. Still, there are aspects of these Rossini pieces that largely
escape him, things for which you have to turn to somebody like Gui to
discover.
One conductor nobody has mentioned so far is Ettore Panizza, a mainstay
at the Met for many years. On the basis of my limited exposure to his
work, I'd rate Panizza very highly.
Gui, and with certain reservations, Toscanini. My reservations are the
usual ones: Toscanini's whipcrack performances tend toward the
monomaniacally overdriven. Still, all you have to do to see that he
still had a basically gorgeous Italianate sense of phrasing is to
compare him to Abbado or Muti. I don't agree with Mitch Kaufman that
they don't breathe, although they don't invariably breathe quite
enough. Better that than Giulini.
I also have the very greatest admiration for a whole host of Italian
so-called "routiniers," which simply means "conductors who made their
careers conducting Italian opera in the pits of opera houses rather
than conducting German music at the helm of symphony orchestras,"
including especially Antonino Votto and Francesco Molinari-Pradelli. I
never met a Votto performance I didn't like, including, for example,
the Fanciulla with Corelli and the Callas Vestale, both from La Scala.
Votto had all of Toscanini's virtues with none of his vices. Another
conductor in the Votto vein was Simonetto, whose Cetra Schicchi is
brilliantly conducted: he entirely avoids sentimentalizing "O, mio
babbino caro."
As for Molinari-Pradelli, he wasn't invariably "on," but even his
slackest performances reveal a wonderful sense of phrasing, and his
best performances--the Decca L'elisir with Gueden and Di Stefano, the
Philips Don Pasquale with Capecchi and Valdengo--will never be
surpassed.
I even find much to admire in Fausto Cleva. His RCA recording of Luisa
Miller and his Decca Wally are sensationally well conducted. Virtually
all of these guys are vastly underrated, and I've heard thrilling
performances lead by Previtali (the Gencer Vestale), Cillario (the
Gencer Caterina Cornaro), De Fabritiis (the Chicago Mefistofele with
Tebaldi), etc. etc. etc. I find Gabriele Santini a far more
distinctive and spirited conductor in the EMI Boccanegra than the
Abbado of the DGG Boccanegra. Whereas Santini provides an object
lesson in Italianate phrasing, Abbado is smooth, bland,
non-interventionist, and where there is a great disparity in tempi,
Santini's are invariably quicker.
Needless to say, there are performances by some of these conductors
that I actively dislike, including Previtali's studio Traviata with
Moffo, and there's very little from Alberto Erede that has impressed
me, but even in the case of Erede, there's at least one performance
that I quite like, his Decca Rigoletto with Gueden. I have certainly
never heard any performance from Abbado live or studio as distinctively
shaped.
I have ambivalent feelings about Gavazzeni that I don't have the energy
to attempt to characterize. Still, I do understand the enthusiasm of
others.
I have the depressing feeling that with the death of all the routiniers
of the 50's and 60's (and of Gui and Panizza and Toscanini), a whole
performance tradition has disappeared forever. I certainly haven't
heard anything from, say, Pappano, that can compare to the average
routinier-lead performance of the 50's and 60's.
-david gable
Terry Simmons
2005-04-26 07:38:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by REG
Thanks for this...I think I feel a little different than you about Giulini,
but I am glad to see I'm not alone in my reluctance about Erede.
What this exercise has brought to mind, in terms of reading about your
lesser-known likes, is Maestro Bellezza (sp), the conductor of the EMI
Tabarro with Gobbi and Mas. In the opening bars alone, I at least get a
sense of the river going by (and thus, life going by) that I don't get in
any other recording of that work. I am not sure how much else he recorded,
but this performance is near the top of the pile.
I think Pannizza is going back a little far for the purposes of this
exercise, but if we went back that far I think I'd include Papi, who was, I
believe, Ponselle's favored conductor. I have a recollection, at least, of
hearing him on some live performances and thinking he was really first rate.
Don't forget Lamberto Gardelli.
--
Cheers!

Terry
d***@aol.com
2005-04-26 05:40:14 UTC
Permalink
I can't believe I forgot to mention Serafin, and especially the young
Serafin. Despite their undeniable virtues, the Decca Boheme and
Mefistofele with Tebaldi, the DGG Trovatore with Bergonzi, and the RCA
Otello with Vickers do not represent Serafin at white heat.

-david gable
d***@aol.com
2005-04-26 15:56:51 UTC
Permalink
Another conductor I neglected to mention and a conductor that I vastly
prefer to Karajan, Solti, Carlos Kleiber, Muti, Abbado, and Chailly in
oom-pah-pah Italian opera is Renato Cellini. Compared to Cellini, the
above mentioned are absolutely clueless. (The first three are all much
better at the symphonic continuity of Otello than in earlier Verdi.)
The RCA Rigoletto with Berger, Peerce, and Warren is by far one of the
best conducted performances of an Italian opera I have ever heard.
Just compare Cellini's approach to the big father-daughter duet from
Boccanegra in the recording of that scene with Varnay and Warren to
Abbado's slack and faceless approach to the same music in his complete
DGG recording of Boccanegra and you'll see what a precipitous decline
in the ability to phrase Italian opera distinctively has occured in the
last half century. The least of the routiniers used to be able to do
it. Now not even the celebrity maestros have a clue.

-david gable
g***@aol.com
2005-04-26 22:15:33 UTC
Permalink
Some of the best recordings of Italian opera were led by conductors who
were not Italian:

Rigoletto (Kubelik)
Traviata (Pretre)
Trovatore (Mehta)
Aida (Perlea)
Ballo (Leinsdorf)
Forza (Levine)
Ernani (Mitropoulos)
Falstaff (Karajan on EMI -- 1956)
Gianni Schicchi (Maazel)
Puritani (Bonynge)
Sonnambula (Bernstein)
Macbeth (Bohm)
Boheme (Schippers)

Just as you don't have to be Jewish to love Levy's rye bread, you
needn't be Italian to serve the tasty dishes served up by Italy's great
composers of opera.

==G/P Dave
d***@aol.com
2005-04-26 22:37:05 UTC
Permalink
I find it difficult to believe that anybody finds Pretre's Traviata or
Mehta's Trovatore an instance of superlative conducting, but at least
Pretre and Mehta are more adequate to the task than Levine. Levine is
the very model of everything I most detest in anonymous later twentieth
century classical performance practice. His shiny-bright fleet and
efficient performances are devoid of the slightest expressive nuance.
His phrasing is totally lacking in precisely the distinction that
Italian conductors of previous generations brought to Italian opera.
Levine was emphatically not to the manner born. A Toscanini-wannabe in
Verdi, all he duplicates is Toscanini's speed.

I also have to confess my considerable disappointment with Leinsdorf's
contribution to the famous RCA Ballo with Price, Bergonzi, and Merrill.
I was and am bowled over by Leinsdorf's Macbeth with Rysanek and
Warren and expected to have a similar reaction to his Ballo, which I
came to surprisingly late (a few years ago, in fact). In part because
I had such high hopes, I was disappointed to discover that Leinsdorf's
conducting of the Ballo was comparatively slack, far from the white hot
experience his Macbeth is. Not that's he's terrible, but once again,
hardly a performance for the ages. (His Macbeth is also very
beautifully shaped: his phrasing there is truly remarkable.)

-david gable
Andrew T. Kay
2005-04-27 05:08:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by d***@aol.com
Levine is
the very model of everything I most detest in anonymous later
twentieth
Post by d***@aol.com
century classical performance practice. His shiny-bright fleet and
efficient performances are devoid of the slightest expressive nuance.
Still...better those than his shiny-bright glutinous and efficient
Wagner. :)

I don't really disagree with your summing up of Levine's readings as,
too often, high-gloss but faceless affairs; but I don't dislike or go
out of my way to avoid him as you do. There's a certain standard of
execution and a respect for musical values in his performances that one
can rely upon, and that counts for something with me. I share Dave's
generally high opinion of that RCA FORZA. It's a hard work to bring
off, but this is one of the better sets out there, and not in spite of
Levine.
Post by d***@aol.com
I also have to confess my considerable disappointment with
Leinsdorf's
Post by d***@aol.com
contribution to the famous RCA Ballo with Price, Bergonzi, and
Merrill.
Post by d***@aol.com
I was and am bowled over by Leinsdorf's Macbeth with Rysanek and
Warren and expected to have a similar reaction to his Ballo, which I
came to surprisingly late (a few years ago, in fact). In part
because
Post by d***@aol.com
I had such high hopes, I was disappointed to discover that
Leinsdorf's
Post by d***@aol.com
conducting of the Ballo was comparatively slack, far from the white hot
experience his Macbeth is. Not that's he's terrible, but once again,
hardly a performance for the ages.
Agreed. As I've said before, it was my introduction to the work, and
I've come to find it too staid and soggy, although his cast helps.
Muti/EMI is my present favorite among commercial sets, and when I
spot-compared that to the Leinsdorf/RCA, I found Muti more telling in
spotlighting local detail, more sensitive to line, far more incisive
and crisp in rhythmic matters (compare their respective treatments of
big buildup to the end of the first scene, and its playout), just
superior in every respect that matters to me. And I like his
Domingo/Arroyo/Cappuccilli/Cossotto/Grist batting order at least as
much as I like Leinsdorf's Bergonzi/Price/Merrill/Verrett/Grist. Both
of these performances tend toward the "sober" side, though. When I need
a corrective to that, a wider emotional palette, I usually turn to the
famous live Gavazzeni with Callas et al.

Todd K

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