Discussion:
Why did Lenny ridicule Carreras?
(too old to reply)
MIFrost
2004-05-02 03:19:01 UTC
Permalink
I'm referring to a video I remember seeing of the rehearsal and taping
sessions they made for the operatic version of West Side Story some years
ago. If anyone remembers seeing it, LB constantly criticized Mr. Carreras
unmercifully in front of everyone. It was very embarrassing to watch.
Carreras just took it. Anyone know the background behind that episode?

MIFrost
Mitchell Kaufman
2004-05-02 03:25:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by MIFrost
I'm referring to a video I remember seeing of the rehearsal and taping
sessions they made for the operatic version of West Side Story some years
ago. If anyone remembers seeing it, LB constantly criticized Mr. Carreras
unmercifully in front of everyone. It was very embarrassing to watch.
Carreras just took it. Anyone know the background behind that episode?
You might do a Google Groups search, since this has been discussed here
before.

My recollection is that the big blowup (where Carreras flung his music
closed and walked out of the studio) occurred when the singer repeatedly
botched the tricky rhythms of "Something's Coming," to Bernstein's
chagrin.

MK
Oisk17
2004-05-02 05:36:43 UTC
Permalink
Subject: Re: Why did Lenny ridicule Carreras?
My recollection is that the big blowup (where Carreras flung his music
closed and walked out of the studio) occurred when the singer repeatedly
botched the tricky rhythms of "Something's Coming," to Bernstein's
chagrin.
I wondered then and now why Bernstein selected Carreras in the first place, to
play a most definitely non-Spanish teenager. While I was a great fan and
admirer of Bernstein as a conductor and Broadway composer, I think that in his
later years he needed to feed his colossal ego, and treating his greatest work
(IMO) as an opera rather than as a "mere" Broadway show was one way to do that.
Except for the orchestral portions, I think that the original cast album is far
superior to the Carreras version.

Paul
Leonard Tillman
2004-05-02 05:55:38 UTC
Permalink
The story is that Neil Shicoff was the original choice for the
composer-conducted recording.

He was unavailable, so Domingo was approached. He, however, wanted to
sing more than his character's share of the numbers - which put the
kibosh on *that* deal.

Carreras was the last choice, - and though his accent was all wrong
for the Polish-American "Anton" or "Tony", he did provide considerable
vocal charm.

I don't know of his saying much publicly, in the years since, about
the static with Bernstein during the recording's making.

Leonard Tillman
-------------------------------------------------
"The internet jungle can't be without its hyenas, its faux-literary
Geeks." -- Ancient Azerbaijani philosopher and part-time Amway
representative.
Premiereopera
2004-05-02 07:38:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by Leonard Tillman
He was unavailable, so Domingo was approached. He, however, wanted to
sing more than his character's share of the numbers - which put the
kibosh on *that* deal.
Sure sounds like a very low ego to me!!!
The same thing happened with the South Pacific CD, when Domingo was approached
to record it. He said he wanted to record the music of both De Becque and Joe
Cable, so out he went. He wanted all the big hits: not just Some Enchanged
Evening, but also Younger than Springtime.

Ed
Leonard Tillman
2004-05-02 11:03:02 UTC
Permalink
Tillman)
"He was unavailable, so Domingo was approached. He, however, wanted to
sing more than his character's share of the numbers - which put the
kibosh on *that* deal. "
Sure sounds like a very low ego to me!!! The
same thing happened with the South Pacific
CD, when Domingo was approached to
record it. He said he wanted to record the
music of both De Becque and Joe Cable, so
out he went. He wanted all the big hits: not
just Some Enchanged Evening, but also
Younger than Springtime.
In a song anthology that would've been acceptable, no problem, - but
in an album of all of the show's songs, in order of appearance with the
roles specifically assigned to their respective interpretors - how could
that work convincingly?

It's not as if De Becque and Cable are, in some sense, facets of a
single character, e.g. Hoffmann's "Four Villains".
Ed
Leonard Tillman
-------------------------------------------------
"The internet jungle can't be without its hyenas, its faux-literary
Geeks." -- Ancient Azerbaijani philosopher and part-time Amway
representative.
Jim OlsEn
2004-05-02 13:12:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by Premiereopera
Post by Leonard Tillman
He was unavailable, so Domingo was approached. He, however, wanted to
sing more than his character's share of the numbers - which put the
kibosh on *that* deal.
Sure sounds like a very low ego to me!!!
The same thing happened with the South Pacific CD, when Domingo was approached
to record it. He said he wanted to record the music of both De Becque and Joe
Cable, so out he went. He wanted all the big hits: not just Some Enchanged
Evening, but also Younger than Springtime.
Ed>
Why didn't Domingo merely exercise his cosmic clout that you are forever
whining about? BTW, what is the source of your anecdote? It sounds like
bullshit to me.
David7Gable
2004-05-02 14:40:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jim OlsEn
Why didn't Domingo merely exercise his cosmic clout that you are forever
whining about? BTW, what is the source of your anecdote? It sounds like
bullshit to me.
My sentiments exactly.

-david gable
Drakejake
2004-05-02 15:04:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by David7Gable
Post by Jim OlsEn
Why didn't Domingo merely exercise his cosmic clout that you are forever
whining about? BTW, what is the source of your anecdote? It sounds like
bullshit to me.
My sentiments exactly.
-david gable
We must remember never to take Ed's word for anything without objective
confirmation. Ed's strong desire to smear Domingo at every opportunity is
quite apparent.

Jake Drake
GRNDPADAVE
2004-05-02 16:52:33 UTC
Permalink
Why wasn't Johnny Mathis cosidered for the role of Tony?

I saw Mathis in a Carnegie Hall program where he sang "Maria" and delivered a
marvelous interpretation ending with a superbly suspended final note.

Chances are he would have been great! (But, it's not for me to say.)

==G/P Dave
Mitchell Kaufman
2004-05-02 17:55:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by GRNDPADAVE
Why wasn't Johnny Mathis cosidered for the role of Tony?
I saw Mathis in a Carnegie Hall program where he sang "Maria" and
delivered a marvelous interpretation ending with a superbly suspended
final note.
Chances are he would have been great! (But, it's not for me to say.)
That's an interesting and thought-provoking suggestion. I think there
would've been a couple of basic problems: first, Mathis, who I feel was
a *great* singer (almost exclusively of romantic ballads) early on, had
lost a good deal of his sweetness of voice by the time the Bernstein WSS
recording was made in the '80s. Frankly, I feel the youthful sheen had
already begun to wear off by around 1960 or so. That said, he did make
lovely recordings of "Maria" and "Tonight" in the early years, and "One
Hand, One Heart" years later. (Dave doesn't specify when he heard him.)

Number two: to imagine Johnny Mathis as the leader of a New York street
gang would require more suspension of disbelief than I'm prepared to
summon. ;-)

MK
REG
2004-05-02 18:40:57 UTC
Permalink
Welcome back, Dave.
Post by GRNDPADAVE
Why wasn't Johnny Mathis cosidered for the role of Tony?
I saw Mathis in a Carnegie Hall program where he sang "Maria" and delivered a
marvelous interpretation ending with a superbly suspended final note.
Chances are he would have been great! (But, it's not for me to say.)
==G/P Dave
Michael Hetsko
2004-05-02 15:03:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by Oisk17
I wondered then and now why Bernstein selected Carreras in the first place, to
play a most definitely non-Spanish teenager. While I was a great fan and
admirer of Bernstein as a conductor and Broadway composer, I think that in his
later years he needed to feed his colossal ego, and treating his greatest work
(IMO) as an opera rather than as a "mere" Broadway show was one way to do that.
Except for the orchestral portions, I think that the original cast album is far
superior to the Carreras version.
Paul
I thought that part of the shtick of that recording was the sort of reversal
of ethnic roles, e.g. Kiri definitely not a Puerto Rican Maria, Carreras
definitely not an "Anglo-Polish" Tony. As I recall, LB blew up at his
producer who at one point was giving "elocution lessons" to Carreras. It
was clear that Carreras was having difficulty with the music; I thought
because he just hadn't bothered to read it before he got to the recording
studio?

I recall from the video that at one point Lenny told Kiri that she sounded
"yummy"!

mh
MarianneLuban
2004-05-02 18:13:06 UTC
Permalink
Subject: Re: Why did Lenny ridicule Carreras?
Date: 5/2/2004 8:03 AM Pacific Daylight Time
Post by Oisk17
I wondered then and now why Bernstein selected Carreras in the first
place, to
Post by Oisk17
play a most definitely non-Spanish teenager. While I was a great fan and
admirer of Bernstein as a conductor and Broadway composer, I think that in
his
Post by Oisk17
later years he needed to feed his colossal ego, and treating his greatest
work
Post by Oisk17
(IMO) as an opera rather than as a "mere" Broadway show was one way to do
that.
Post by Oisk17
Except for the orchestral portions, I think that the original cast album
is far
Post by Oisk17
superior to the Carreras version.
Paul
I thought that part of the shtick of that recording was the sort of reversal
of ethnic roles, e.g. Kiri definitely not a Puerto Rican Maria, Carreras
definitely not an "Anglo-Polish" Tony. As I recall, LB blew up at his
producer who at one point was giving "elocution lessons" to Carreras. It
was clear that Carreras was having difficulty with the music; I thought
because he just hadn't bothered to read it before he got to the recording
studio?
I don't know about that last part, but that's basically the way I remember it,
too. It's ridiculous, though. There is no amount of elocution lessons that
can make Carreras sound like a New Yorker. There are some great parts that do
not actually require great voices. I am a major fan of Domingo--but I thought
he was terrible as Don Quixote in the "Man of La Mancha" recording. Now I
realize Don Quixote is supposed to be a Spaniard but so was Sancho Panza.
Mandy Patimkin had no accent--but he did a better job, somehow, in his role
than Domingo did with his own songs. I couldn't believe Domingo didn't make
anything out of "The Impossible Dream"--but it just fell flat, IMO. Give me
Richard Kiley any day. Kiley couldn't compare with Domingo as a singer--but he
sounds just right.
GRNDPADAVE
2004-05-02 18:28:41 UTC
Permalink
Date: 05/02/2004 1:13 PM Central Daylight Time
Subject: Re: Why did Lenny ridicule Carreras?
Date: 5/2/2004 8:03 AM Pacific Daylight Time
Post by Oisk17
I wondered then and now why Bernstein selected Carreras in the first
place, to
Post by Oisk17
play a most definitely non-Spanish teenager. While I was a great fan and
admirer of Bernstein as a conductor and Broadway composer, I think that in
his
Post by Oisk17
later years he needed to feed his colossal ego, and treating his greatest
work
Post by Oisk17
(IMO) as an opera rather than as a "mere" Broadway show was one way to do
that.
Post by Oisk17
Except for the orchestral portions, I think that the original cast album
is far
Post by Oisk17
superior to the Carreras version.
Paul
I thought that part of the shtick of that recording was the sort of reversal
of ethnic roles, e.g. Kiri definitely not a Puerto Rican Maria, Carreras
definitely not an "Anglo-Polish" Tony. As I recall, LB blew up at his
producer who at one point was giving "elocution lessons" to Carreras. It
was clear that Carreras was having difficulty with the music; I thought
because he just hadn't bothered to read it before he got to the recording
studio?
I don't know about that last part, but that's basically the way I remember it,
too. It's ridiculous, though. There is no amount of elocution lessons that
can make Carreras sound like a New Yorker. There are some great parts that do
not actually require great voices. I am a major fan of Domingo--but I thought
he was terrible as Don Quixote in the "Man of La Mancha" recording. Now I
realize Don Quixote is supposed to be a Spaniard but so was Sancho Panza.
Mandy Patimkin had no accent--but he did a better job, somehow, in his role
than Domingo did with his own songs. I couldn't believe Domingo didn't make
anything out of "The Impossible Dream"--but it just fell flat, IMO. Give me
Richard Kiley any day. Kiley couldn't compare with Domingo as a singer--but he
sounds just right.
~~~~~~~~~~~
Funny, but I find Domingo's portrayal of Don Quixote (Cervantes) a complete
triumph.

He provides plenty of squillo in the ringing "I am I, Don Quixote, the Lord of
La Mancha" and a stirring "Golden Helmet of Mambrino" not to mention a
gorgeously melting rendition of "Dulcinea."

As for "The Quest" he provides gradations of dynamic and, ultimately, power
beyond the gifts of Richard Kiley.

This album offers a stunning cast including: Jerry Hadley, Julia Migenes, Mandy
Patinkin, Samuel Ramey, and Rosalind Elias -- and is superbly directed by Paul
Gemignani.

With proper transpositions, I'd love to hear Domingo as Tevye In FIDDLER.

==G/P Dave
donpaolo
2004-05-02 21:05:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by GRNDPADAVE
With proper transpositions, I'd love to hear Domingo as Tevye In FIDDLER.
==G/P Dave
Oh, I don't think it's all that high - he should be able to slide by in the
original.

DonP.
REG
2004-05-02 18:43:13 UTC
Permalink
I believe that citizenship in this country is open to all, and certainly
residence in any of the 50 states. I also believe that there are many kinds
of "New Yorkers".

Looking forward to seeing you scamble away on this one.
Post by MarianneLuban
There is no amount of elocution lessons that
can make Carreras sound like a New Yorker.
Terrymelin
2004-05-02 20:19:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by REG
I believe that citizenship in this country is open to all, and certainly
residence in any of the 50 states. I also believe that there are many kinds
of "New Yorkers".
Looking forward to seeing you scamble away on this one.
"MarianneLuban"
Now, Now, REG. She'll just trot out of the many, many books she's published and
we'll all be embarassed that she's an expert on this subject too.

Terry Ellsworth
Leonard Tillman
2004-05-02 20:28:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by REG
Looking forward to seeing you scamble away
on this one.
We look forward to seeing you scamble - and scramble - away. Period,
Reggie.

LT
Post by REG
"MarianneLuban"
-m16.aol.com...
There is no amount of elocution lessons that
can make Carreras sound like a New Yorker.
Leonard Tillman
-------------------------------------------------
"The internet jungle can't be without its hyenas, its faux-literary
Geeks." -- Ancient Azerbaijani philosopher and part-time Amway
representative.
Leonard Tillman
2004-05-02 18:53:21 UTC
Permalink
Re Domingo's portrayal of Don Quixote - I enjoyed it greatly, though
believing that the set's "Innkeeper/Governor" Sam Ramey, would've been
no-less suited to the title-role.

Quixote seems ideal for the bass voice, and Ramey's own renditions of
"The Impossible Dream" on CDs and in concert-appearances are fully a
match for that of the original, the great Richard Kiley himself.

Leonard Tillman
-------------------------------------------------
"The internet jungle can't be without its hyenas, its faux-literary
Geeks." -- Ancient Azerbaijani philosopher and part-time Amway
representative.
Operatunenity
2004-05-03 01:55:46 UTC
Permalink
Why did Lenny ridicule Carreras?
Because he could. I lost my respect for Lenny as a person when I saw him
demean Carerras during a documentary of a rehearsal for Westside story. It was
nasty and uncalled for.
Leonard Tillman
2004-05-03 04:13:10 UTC
Permalink
Why did Lenny ridicule Carreras?
=A0=A0Because he could.
Same "mentality", it seems, as some on this forum.
I lost my respect for Lenny as a person when I
saw him demean Carerras during a
documentary of a rehearsal for Westside
story. It was nasty and uncalled for.
Indeed. But was this a different incident from the one referred to
earlier in this thread?

Leonard Tillman
-------------------------------------------------
"The internet jungle can't be without its hyenas, its faux-literary
Geeks." -- Ancient Azerbaijani philosopher and part-time Amway
representative.
Terrymelin
2004-05-03 15:02:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by Operatunenity
Because he could. I lost my respect for Lenny as a person when I saw him
demean Carerras during a documentary of a rehearsal for Westside story. It was
nasty and uncalled for.
I lost my respect for "Lenny" as a person much earlier especially while he was
out trolling for tricks at the same time his wife was dying of cancer. Sweet
guy.

Terry Ellsworth
OndineUno
2004-05-03 16:09:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by Terrymelin
I lost my respect for "Lenny" as a person much earlier especially while he was
out trolling for tricks at the same time his wife was dying of cancer. Sweet
guy.
Terry Ellsworth
He was nothing more than a pushy self-serving piece of shit, with a big mouth,
another 'queen' still championed by a few of his "ilk." o¿o
Jim OlsEn
2004-05-02 19:20:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by MarianneLuban
I don't know about that last part, but that's basically the way I remember it,
too. It's ridiculous, though. There is no amount of elocution lessons that
can make Carreras sound like a New Yorker. >
That's crazy talk, Marianne. Do you have any idea how many New Yorkers are
Latinos?

Zillions, that's how many. And millions of them speak English with Hispanic
accents. You better stick with Thutmose II. He definitely didn't sound like
a New Yorker.

< Give me Richard Kiley any day. Kiley couldn't compare with Domingo as a
singer--but he
Post by MarianneLuban
sounds just right. >
Not any more.
Leonard Tillman
2004-05-02 20:33:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jim OlsEn
That's crazy talk, Marianne.
Why don't you shut your face(s), Chuckie?

Your rebuke on "crazy talk" makes as much sense as your namesake Manson
grousing on poor manners when visiting another's home.

Leonard Tillman
-------------------------------------------------
"The internet jungle can't be without its hyenas, its faux-literary
Geeks." -- Ancient Azerbaijani philosopher and part-time Amway
representative.
MarianneLuban
2004-05-03 06:46:47 UTC
Permalink
Subject: Re: Why did Lenny ridicule Carreras?
Date: 5/2/2004 12:20 PM Pacific Daylight Time
Post by MarianneLuban
I don't know about that last part, but that's basically the way I remember
it,
Post by MarianneLuban
too. It's ridiculous, though. There is no amount of elocution lessons
that
Post by MarianneLuban
can make Carreras sound like a New Yorker. >
That's crazy talk, Marianne. Do you have any idea how many New Yorkers are
Latinos?
Zillions, that's how many. And millions of them speak English with Hispanic
accents. You better stick with Thutmose II. He definitely didn't sound like
a New Yorker.
< Give me Richard Kiley any day. Kiley couldn't compare with Domingo as a
singer--but he
Post by MarianneLuban
sounds just right. >
Not any more.
Subject: Re: Why did Lenny ridicule Carreras?
Date: 5/2/2004 12:20 PM Pacific Daylight Time
Post by MarianneLuban
I don't know about that last part, but that's basically the way I remember
it,
Post by MarianneLuban
too. It's ridiculous, though. There is no amount of elocution lessons
that
Post by MarianneLuban
can make Carreras sound like a New Yorker. >
That's crazy talk, Marianne. Do you have any idea how many New Yorkers are
Latinos?
Zillions, that's how many. And millions of them speak English with Hispanic
accents. You better stick with Thutmose II. He definitely didn't sound like
a New Yorker.
Tony was no Hispanic. Ah, yes, why not have a completely Hispanic "West Side
Story"? Then no conflict, right? Pace in terra.
< Give me Richard Kiley any day. Kiley couldn't compare with Domingo as a
singer--but he
Post by MarianneLuban
sounds just right. >
Not any more.
Sure. Just press the "play" button.
Leonard Tillman
2004-05-03 14:39:30 UTC
Permalink
Tony was no Hispanic. Ah, yes, why not have
a completely Hispanic "West Side Story"?
Then no conflict, right? Pace in terra.
I'd also be interested in the presentations of the work as done in
other lands, e.g., the Orient, Polynesian islands, and Scandinavia,
where the people are superficially so different from a traditional WSS
cast, - yet so similar amongst themselves.

The idea's reminiscent, too, of the MDM Pagliacci video with an
entirely Japanese chorus and supernumeraries. While watching it, one
must really *try* to believe they're townfolk of Calabria, Italy.

Leonard Tillman
-------------------------------------------------
"The internet jungle can't be without its hyenas, its faux-literary
Geeks." -- Ancient Azerbaijani philosopher and part-time Amway
representative.
Jim OlsEn
2004-05-03 21:17:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by Leonard Tillman
The idea's reminiscent, too, of the MDM Pagliacci video with an
entirely Japanese chorus and supernumeraries. While watching it, one
must really *try* to believe they're townfolk of Calabria, Italy.
It's also reminiscent of your posts. While reading them one must really
*try* to believe you have a brain.

And by the way, you owe Mr Silverman an apology, you squatulous old skunk.
Leonard Tillman
2004-05-03 23:35:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jim OlsEn
your posts. While reading them one must
- appreciate the fact that I'm addressing Chuckie Bollman, of whom we
must
really *try* to believe he has, had, or someday will have a brain.
Above his navel-lint.

And by the way, you and the twit from Borneo owe the Messrs.T a minimum
of 8 billion apologies, you gummy old gits.

Leonard Tillman
-------------------------------------------------
"The internet jungle can't be without its hyenas, its faux-literary
Geeks." -- Ancient Azerbaijani philosopher and part-time Amway
representative.
OndineUno
2004-05-03 16:10:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jim OlsEn
That's crazy talk, Marianne
This ugly old broad is crazy. Ask anybody. oo
Terrymelin
2004-05-02 20:18:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by MarianneLuban
I don't know about that last part, but that's basically the way I remember it,
too. It's ridiculous, though. There is no amount of elocution lessons that
can make Carreras sound like a New Yorker. There are some great parts that do
not actually require great voices. I am a major fan of Domingo--but I thought
he was terrible as Don Quixote in the "Man of La Mancha" recording. Now I
realize Don Quixote is supposed to be a Spaniard but so was Sancho Panza.
Mandy Patimkin had no accent--but he did a better job, somehow, in his role
than Domingo did with his own songs. I couldn't believe Domingo didn't make
anything out of "The Impossible Dream"--but it just fell flat, IMO. Give me
Richard Kiley any day. Kiley couldn't compare with Domingo as a singer--but he
sounds just right.
Do you think who could have sounded right as the King of Egypt?

Terry Ellsworth
MarianneLuban
2004-05-03 06:50:00 UTC
Permalink
Subject: Re: Why did Lenny ridicule Carreras?
Date: 5/2/2004 1:18 PM Pacific Daylight Time
Post by MarianneLuban
I don't know about that last part, but that's basically the way I remember it,
too. It's ridiculous, though. There is no amount of elocution lessons that
can make Carreras sound like a New Yorker. There are some great parts that do
not actually require great voices. I am a major fan of Domingo--but I thought
he was terrible as Don Quixote in the "Man of La Mancha" recording. Now I
realize Don Quixote is supposed to be a Spaniard but so was Sancho Panza.
Mandy Patimkin had no accent--but he did a better job, somehow, in his role
than Domingo did with his own songs. I couldn't believe Domingo didn't make
anything out of "The Impossible Dream"--but it just fell flat, IMO. Give me
Richard Kiley any day. Kiley couldn't compare with Domingo as a singer--but he
sounds just right.
Do you think who could have sounded right as the King of Egypt?
Any one of you idiot trolls right here would do admirably, your big aria sung
in the finale, drowning in the sea. Ondine is practicing in his toilet right
this minute.
Terrymelin
2004-05-03 15:01:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by MarianneLuban
Any one of you idiot trolls right here would do admirably, your big aria sung
in the finale, drowning in the sea. Ondine is practicing in his toilet right
this minute.
What a lovely woman you are. To quote John Gielgud: "one must usually go to a
bowling alley to meet a woman of your stature."

Terry Ellsworth
OndineUno
2004-05-03 16:18:40 UTC
Permalink
Date: 5/3/2004 2:50 AM Eastern Standard Time
Any one of you idiot trolls right here would do admirably, your big aria sung
in the finale, drowning in the sea. Ondine is practicing in his toilet right
this minute.
Oh my, there goes the Queen of Trolls and Humpers, mouthing off again about
toilets. Aren't you getting too old for this strenuous nocturnal activity? But
I forget, you only come out at night. oo
Noam
2004-05-02 22:17:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by Oisk17
I wondered then and now why Bernstein selected Carreras in the first place, to
play a most definitely non-Spanish teenager.
I may be mixing things up completely, and google or opera-l archives didn't
help, but I vaguely remember that Bernstein did a concert performance of
Siegfried Act III (maybe also Walkure act III) in Vienna in the 80's, which
was a flop. He was quoted as saying after the fiasco "why didn't anyone tell
me that X never sang Siegfried before?" IIRC, X was James King.

Noam
Alcindoro
2004-05-02 05:56:37 UTC
Permalink
when the singer repeatedly botched the tricky rhythms of "Something's Coming,"
to Bernstein's chagrin.<

Maybe it's because I'm American and grew up on American pop and jazz and
musical theatre and WEST SIDE STORY, but I have never understood how a singer
like Carreras (admittedly miscast to begin with in that horror-show WEST SIDE
recording) who could handle the tricky music of Rossini, Puccini, Verdi and
others simply COULDN'T absorb those syncopations. But it's there on record for
all posterity.
Parterrebox
2004-05-02 14:27:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by Alcindoro
I have never understood how a singer
like Carreras ... who could handle the tricky music of Rossini, Puccini, Verdi
and
others simply COULDN'T absorb those syncopations.

That rhythm is not simply a matter of singing precisely what is notated, but
rather of style, and we all know of singers whose sense of style is limited to
their core repertoire and weaker elsewhere -- listen, for example, to Kiri te
Kanawa's attempts at Puccini and Verdi, beautiful in voice but clueless in what
makes the music "go."

The difference between this recording and most others was the presence of the
documentary camera. Singers do show up for sessions from time to time
unprepared, and producers have to rework the schedule to allow extra time with
coaches, patching and so forth. But this time we see it actually happening, and
it's not pretty.
=============

parterre box
www.parterre.com
John Norfolk
2004-05-02 18:27:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mitchell Kaufman
Post by MIFrost
I'm referring to a video I remember seeing of the rehearsal and taping
sessions they made for the operatic version of West Side Story some years
ago. If anyone remembers seeing it, LB constantly criticized Mr. Carreras
unmercifully in front of everyone. It was very embarrassing to watch.
Carreras just took it. Anyone know the background behind that episode?
You might do a Google Groups search, since this has been discussed here
before.
My recollection is that the big blowup (where Carreras flung his music
closed and walked out of the studio) occurred when the singer repeatedly
botched the tricky rhythms of "Something's Coming," to Bernstein's
chagrin.
MK
I think it was during the recording of "Maria" when Carreras
interrupted the take for some reason then walked out mad when producer
John McClure said that the session was over.
Jon A Conrad
2004-05-02 12:27:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by MIFrost
I'm referring to a video I remember seeing of the rehearsal and taping
sessions they made for the operatic version of West Side Story some years
ago. If anyone remembers seeing it, LB constantly criticized Mr. Carreras
unmercifully in front of everyone. It was very embarrassing to watch.
It was. Carreras was unable to perform the written rhythms in "Something's
Coming" accurately, something I would expect any second-year music major
to be able to do.
Post by MIFrost
Carreras just took it.
Because he was in the wrong. If you consent to record a part, you show up
knowing it, however unsuitable you may be. And if you look at the video,
Bernstein didn't really "constantly criticize Mr. Carreras unmercifully"
-- he just asked him to do it again and again, till he got it right. Which
he never did. He told him where his mistakes were, but that isn't
exactly unwarranted criticism out of nowhere. (And as he left, he murmured
to his daughter, "So many problems.")
Post by MIFrost
Anyone know the background behind that episode?
DG had insisted on "acceptable star names" for each of the roles. Carreras
was third choice for Tony, Troyanos second choice for Anita. None of the
many suitable choices for the roles were even considered.

Jon Alan Conrad
Department of Music
University of Delaware
***@udel.edu
HPLeft
2004-05-02 13:27:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jon A Conrad
DG had insisted on "acceptable star names" for each of the roles. Carreras
was third choice for Tony, Troyanos second choice for Anita. None of the
many suitable choices for the roles were even considered.
I was told by the DG people that Lenny thought he was retaining Alberto
Remedios rather than Jose Carreras for this role. As the story goes, he
apparently confused the two singers. Carreras is clearly a weak link in
this recording, but IMHO no less of a weak link than Lenny's own
heavy-handed conducting. To my ears, Troyanos is quite good as Anita,
better than Te Kanawa's Maria.

Still, as imperfect as the resulting recording is, I think it makes a
compelling case for West Side Story as a 20th century musical masterpiece,
and a work that will benefit from the use of better vocal and orchestral
forces than are usually available in a Broadway theatre.

Matt C
Jon A Conrad
2004-05-02 14:32:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by HPLeft
I was told by the DG people that Lenny thought he was retaining Alberto
Remedios rather than Jose Carreras for this role. As the story goes, he
apparently confused the two singers.
This is a rumor (probably originally a joke) that won't die. But it has no
credibility on its face: first, that DG, with its name-oriented casting,
would have considered Remedios for this role; second, that Bernstein would
have imagined him as the ideal casting for Tony; third, that so
knowledgeable an international opera conductor as Bernstein would have
confused the two; fourth, that major label casting deals are made on the
basis of a hasty confused phone call or whatever, in the manner suggested
by this story. I do understand the appeal of the tale, because one would
like to think that casting Carreras in this role could only be the result
of a grotesque mistake or misunderstanding.

The reported "list" that DG gave Bernstein was: for Tony, Domingo (!),
then Shicoff, then Carreras. For Anita, Horne, then Troyanos. Te Kanawa
was apparently first choice for Maria. Horne got into the recording after
all (postdubbed) when the scheduled Jessye Norman was unavailable to
record "Somewhere."
Post by HPLeft
Carreras is clearly a weak link in
this recording, but IMHO no less of a weak link than Lenny's own
heavy-handed conducting.
The latter is arguable (I don't necessarily disagree, but it is to some
extent a matter of taste). The former is objectively verifiable
inadequacy, on the "count 1-2 and come in on 3" level.
Post by HPLeft
and a work that will benefit from the use of better vocal and orchestral
forces than are usually available in a Broadway theatre.
There's certainly room for a WEST SIDE STORY recording that satisfies the
score's considerable demands without sacrificing dramatic immediacy. But I
suspect that it will have to come from the ranks of some of the really
fine less-than-star theater singers around these days, people like Rebecca
Luker or Patti Cohenour for Maria, Debbie Gravitte for Anita, Brent
Barrett or Brian d'Arcy James for Tony, Marc Kudisch for Riff. Or others
of that ilk. It's rather surprising that nobody has tried to assemble such
a cast for recording Bernstein's most popular score.

Jon Alan Conrad
Department of Music
University of Delaware
***@udel.edu
Commspkmn
2004-05-02 14:54:02 UTC
Permalink
***@intention.nss.udel.edu wrote:
<< The reported "list" that DG gave Bernstein was: for Tony, Domingo (!),
then Shicoff, then Carreras. >>

I've heard that Jerry Hadley was one of the top choices for Tony, if not the
first choice.
Best,
Ken
Drakejake
2004-05-02 15:01:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jon A Conrad
There's certainly room for a WEST SIDE STORY recording that satisfies the
score's considerable demands without sacrificing dramatic immediacy. But I
suspect that it will have to come from the ranks of some of the really
fine less-than-star theater singers around these days, people like Rebecca
Luker or Patti Cohenour for Maria, Debbie Gravitte for Anita, Brent
Barrett or Brian d'Arcy James for Tony, Marc Kudisch for Riff. Or others
of that ilk. It's rather surprising that nobody has tried to assemble such
a cast for recording Bernstein's most popular score.
Jon Alan Conrad
Department of Music
University of Delaware
The Nashville Symphony combined with the local Tennessee Rep theatre group to
perform and record WSS a couple of years ago. It was issued on NAXOS. I
haven't heard it, but would buy if I ever come upon it. I have performed with
the guy who sang the male lead, basically a pop singer.

Jake Drake
William Kasimer
2004-05-02 15:15:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by Drakejake
The Nashville Symphony combined with the local Tennessee Rep theatre group to
perform and record WSS a couple of years ago. It was issued on NAXOS. I
haven't heard it, but would buy if I ever come upon it.
I wouldn't bother. I bought it when was first issued, and it struck me as
poorly sung and generally perfunctory.

I'm not an expert on the WSS discography by any means, but the recording
that I turn to most often is the recently re-issued one with Barbara Bonney
and Michael Ball.

Bill
--
======================
William D. Kasimer
***@comcast.net
***@quincymc.org
Alcindoro
2004-05-02 15:38:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by William Kasimer
I wouldn't bother. I bought it when was first issued, and it struck me as
poorly sung and generally perfunctory.<

It's not the last word on the score but I don't think it's a bad recording,
enjoy it whenever I play it, and the Tony is superb.
Plus it is inexpensive. But there is definitely room for a new one with a
top-level cast drawing from the best of Broadway and opera.
Leonard Tillman
2004-05-02 16:43:52 UTC
Permalink
The Nashville Symphony combined with the local Tennessee Rep theatre
group to perform and record WSS a couple of years ago. =A0 It was issued
on NAXOS. I haven't heard it, but would buy if I ever come upon it. I
have performed with the guy who sang the male lead, basically a pop
singer.

Jake Drake
----------------------------
Check it out, some clips show that it's nicely done:

http://www.opuscds.com/cd/31527

Btw, the two most enjoyable versions I ever heard of "Maria" were by
Sergio Franchi and Jan Peerce(!).

Leonard Tillman
-------------------------------------------------
"The internet jungle can't be without its hyenas, its faux-literary
Geeks." -- Ancient Azerbaijani philosopher and part-time Amway
representative.
Drakejake
2004-05-02 18:45:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by Leonard Tillman
Btw, the two most enjoyable versions I ever heard of "Maria" were by
Sergio Franchi and Jan Peerce(!).
Leonard Tillman
Franchi had one of the great tenor voices.

JD
Leonard Tillman
2004-05-02 20:29:58 UTC
Permalink
From: ***@aol.com (Drakejake)
"Btw, the two most enjoyable versions I ever heard of "Maria" were by
Sergio Franchi and Jan Peerce(!).
Leonard Tillman "
Post by Drakejake
Franchi had one of the great tenor voices.
JD
And he did sing opera, as South Africa's leading tenor, prior to his
"Pop" career.

Leonard Tillman
-------------------------------------------------
"The internet jungle can't be without its hyenas, its faux-literary
Geeks." -- Ancient Azerbaijani philosopher and part-time Amway
representative.
Leonard Tillman
2004-05-02 15:01:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jon A Conrad
There's certainly room for a WEST SIDE
STORY recording that satisfies the score's
considerable demands without sacrificing
dramatic immediacy. But I suspect that it will
have to come from the ranks of some of the
really fine less-than-star theater singers
around these days, people like Rebecca
Luker or Patti Cohenour for Maria, Debbie
Gravitte for Anita, Brent Barrett or Brian
d'Arcy James for Tony, Marc Kudisch for Riff.
Or others of that ilk. It's rather surprising that
nobody has tried to assemble such a cast for
recording Bernstein's most popular score.
I believe a couple of recordings have been issued in the last few
years.

One of them:

http://www.opuscds.com/cd/31527 - is adapted from the original
preceding the B'way and film versions.
Post by Jon A Conrad
Jon Alan Conrad
Department of Music
University of Delaware
Leonard Tillman
-------------------------------------------------
"The internet jungle can't be without its hyenas, its faux-literary
Geeks." -- Ancient Azerbaijani philosopher and part-time Amway
representative.
Matthew B. Tepper
2004-05-02 16:04:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jon A Conrad
Post by HPLeft
I was told by the DG people that Lenny thought he was retaining Alberto
Remedios rather than Jose Carreras for this role. As the story goes, he
apparently confused the two singers.
This is a rumor (probably originally a joke) that won't die. But it has
no credibility on its face: first, that DG, with its name-oriented casting,
would have considered Remedios for this role; second, that Bernstein would
have imagined him as the ideal casting for Tony; third, that so
knowledgeable an international opera conductor as Bernstein would have
confused the two; fourth, that major label casting deals are made on the
basis of a hasty confused phone call or whatever, in the manner suggested
by this story. I do understand the appeal of the tale, because one would
like to think that casting Carreras in this role could only be the result
of a grotesque mistake or misunderstanding.
Rumor or joke, it was told to me with a straight face by Harold Moores when I
bought the set from him at his store in 1985. The spin in this instance was
that Lenny had heard this "wonderful singer with a Spanish name" (yes, I know
Remedios is a Liverpudlian) but couldn't remember the name itself, and by the
time Carreras was assigned, it was too late to change.
Post by Jon A Conrad
The reported "list" that DG gave Bernstein was: for Tony, Domingo (!), then
Shicoff, then Carreras. For Anita, Horne, then Troyanos. Te Kanawa was
apparently first choice for Maria. Horne got into the recording after all
(postdubbed) when the scheduled Jessye Norman was unavailable to record
"Somewhere."
Post by HPLeft
Carreras is clearly a weak link in this recording, but IMHO no less of a
weak link than Lenny's own heavy-handed conducting.
The latter is arguable (I don't necessarily disagree, but it is to some
extent a matter of taste). The former is objectively verifiable
inadequacy, on the "count 1-2 and come in on 3" level.
One wonders if Lenny could have used the solution that Toscanini came up with
for Robert Merrill in the _Traviata_ broadcasts?
Post by Jon A Conrad
Post by HPLeft
and a work that will benefit from the use of better vocal and orchestral
forces than are usually available in a Broadway theatre.
There's certainly room for a WEST SIDE STORY recording that satisfies the
score's considerable demands without sacrificing dramatic immediacy. But I
suspect that it will have to come from the ranks of some of the really
fine less-than-star theater singers around these days, people like Rebecca
Luker or Patti Cohenour for Maria, Debbie Gravitte for Anita, Brent
Barrett or Brian d'Arcy James for Tony, Marc Kudisch for Riff. Or others
of that ilk. It's rather surprising that nobody has tried to assemble such
a cast for recording Bernstein's most popular score.
How's the John Owen Edwards recording on TER? Or the Naxos? Admittedly both
have less well-known singers.
--
Matthew B. Tepper: WWW, science fiction, classical music, ducks!
My personal home page -- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/index.html
My main music page --- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/berlioz.html
To write to me, do for my address what Androcles did for the lion
Take THAT, Daniel Lin, Mark Sadek, James Lin & Christopher Chung!
Jon A Conrad
2004-05-02 19:38:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by Matthew B. Tepper
Rumor or joke, it was told to me with a straight face by Harold Moores when I
bought the set from him at his store in 1985. The spin in this instance was
that Lenny had heard this "wonderful singer with a Spanish name" (yes, I know
Remedios is a Liverpudlian) but couldn't remember the name itself, and by the
time Carreras was assigned, it was too late to change.
Yes, I've heard the story in those same words. Mr. Moores must have told
it to a lot of people. But honestly, is it credible for a moment that
casting of a half-million-dollar recording project is carried out by
securing a "wonderful singer with a Spanish name," half-remembered by the
conductor and immediately engaged (wrongly, according to the story) on his
say-so with no further checking? When every member of the cast had to be
thoroughly vetted for earning power, and even Lenny had no clout in
getting the cast he really wanted, because DG wanted bigger names?
Post by Matthew B. Tepper
Post by Jon A Conrad
inadequacy, on the "count 1-2 and come in on 3" level.
One wonders if Lenny could have used the solution that Toscanini came up with
for Robert Merrill in the _Traviata_ broadcasts?
What is that? Somehow I've never heard about this.
Post by Matthew B. Tepper
How's the John Owen Edwards recording on TER? Or the Naxos? Admittedly both
have less well-known singers.
I have them both. The TER I liked when I first got it, and considered it
(by default) the most recommendable recording if one wanted both
completeness (The OCR omits half the dance at the gym, and only TER
includes the Overture and the entr'acte) and a reasonably suitable cast
and scale. But it hasn't worn well with me: the orchestra doesn't sound
quite right (especially the drummer) and some of the cast show the strain
of hiding their English accents. The Naxos is OK, sort of on the same
basis, without being outstanding enough to merit a wholehearted
recommendation. No stellar individual performances, and the CD's claim to
present the "original version" turn out to be hogwash: it's the standard
Braodway score (except when they choose the movie text, as in "America").
So like I said, for Bernstein's most popular score the field is
surprisingly wide-open for someone to do a stunning new version.

Jon Alan Conrad
Department of Music
University of Delaware
***@udel.edu
Matthew B. Tepper
2004-05-02 22:03:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jon A Conrad
Post by Matthew B. Tepper
Rumor or joke, it was told to me with a straight face by Harold Moores
when I bought the set from him at his store in 1985. The spin in this
instance was that Lenny had heard this "wonderful singer with a Spanish
name" (yes, I know Remedios is a Liverpudlian) but couldn't remember the
name itself, and by the time Carreras was assigned, it was too late to
change.
Yes, I've heard the story in those same words. Mr. Moores must have told
it to a lot of people. But honestly, is it credible for a moment that
casting of a half-million-dollar recording project is carried out by
securing a "wonderful singer with a Spanish name," half-remembered by
the conductor and immediately engaged (wrongly, according to the story)
on his say-so with no further checking? When every member of the cast had
to be thoroughly vetted for earning power, and even Lenny had no clout in
getting the cast he really wanted, because DG wanted bigger names?
Good point, when I think about it. For that sort of thing to happen, it
would require that there be somebody in the classical division of a major
record label to make a stupid mistake. And we all know that THAT could
never happen!
Post by Jon A Conrad
Post by Matthew B. Tepper
Post by Jon A Conrad
inadequacy, on the "count 1-2 and come in on 3" level.
One wonders if Lenny could have used the solution that Toscanini came up
with for Robert Merrill in the _Traviata_ broadcasts?
What is that? Somehow I've never heard about this.
Bob supposedly had problems with some off-the-beat rhythms in one passage,
and so he sat on a chair in front of Toscanini, and marked his part while
the conductor gently tapped him on the head to show him the way it went.
Post by Jon A Conrad
Post by Matthew B. Tepper
How's the John Owen Edwards recording on TER? Or the Naxos? Admittedly
both have less well-known singers.
I have them both. The TER I liked when I first got it, and considered it
(by default) the most recommendable recording if one wanted both
completeness (The OCR omits half the dance at the gym, and only TER
includes the Overture and the entr'acte) and a reasonably suitable cast
and scale. But it hasn't worn well with me: the orchestra doesn't sound
quite right (especially the drummer) and some of the cast show the
strain of hiding their English accents. The Naxos is OK, sort of on the
same basis, without being outstanding enough to merit a wholehearted
recommendation. No stellar individual performances, and the CD's claim
to present the "original version" turn out to be hogwash: it's the
standard Braodway score (except when they choose the movie text, as in
"America"). So like I said, for Bernstein's most popular score the field
is surprisingly wide-open for someone to do a stunning new version.
Thanks, I appreciate your taking time to make the comparison.

I have found TER to be particularly valuable for documenting some shows,
such as the Frank Loesser issues they've done (with the full cooperation of
Loesser's heirs and even the vocal participation of his widow and
daughter), so I believe it is possible to appreciate their work even if
merely on that basis.
--
Matthew B. Tepper: WWW, science fiction, classical music, ducks!
My personal home page -- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/index.html
My main music page --- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/berlioz.html
To write to me, do for my address what Androcles did for the lion
Take THAT, Daniel Lin, Mark Sadek, James Lin & Christopher Chung!
Jon A Conrad
2004-05-02 23:35:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by Matthew B. Tepper
Good point, when I think about it. For that sort of thing to happen, it
would require that there be somebody in the classical division of a major
record label to make a stupid mistake. And we all know that THAT could
never happen!
Fair point. But this seems more like a whole chain-of-command string of
somebodies making simultaneous mistakes. *Could* happen, of course. But I
incline more toward the simpler explanation in most cases: everyday
stupidity and greed -- casting a big name in something he can't do,
because it'll sell records. Happens all the time, alas.
Post by Matthew B. Tepper
Bob supposedly had problems with some off-the-beat rhythms in one passage,
and so he sat on a chair in front of Toscanini, and marked his part while
the conductor gently tapped him on the head to show him the way it went.
Thanks. I'd not heard this, though I bet it happens a lot (I've had to do
similar things with student performers, but one hopes that they get beyond
this by the time they're paid for their work).
Post by Matthew B. Tepper
Thanks, I appreciate your taking time to make the comparison.
No problem! They both came out since I did my big "Bernstein's stage works
recorded" article for OPERA QUARTERLY, so it was fun to try to figure out
how to sum them up.
Post by Matthew B. Tepper
I have found TER to be particularly valuable for documenting some shows,
such as the Frank Loesser issues they've done (with the full cooperation of
Loesser's heirs and even the vocal participation of his widow and
daughter), so I believe it is possible to appreciate their work even if
merely on that basis.
I agree. And some of those TER/JAY recordings, like the MOST HAPPY FELLA
you mention, the GUYS & DOLLS, 110 IN THE SHADE, THE KING AND I, CABARET,
and several others, are superb in performance terms too, by any standard.

I think the WEST SIDE STORY recording, which is one of the earliest
in the TER Masterwork series, is one of their weaker titles. It derives
from a stage production (with some singers like Sally Burgess subbed in),
which might be thought an advantage but in this case mostly isn't. The
voices are inconsistent, the orchestra not too impressive, and the drama
doesn't come across as consistently as one might hope. I have to listen
for the comprehensiveness and sort of blank out bothersome performance
details -- pretty much what you said. But other recordings in the series
like the ones I mentioned are just terrific.

Jon Alan Conrad
Department of Music
University of Delaware
***@udel.edu
s***@nospamprovide.net
2004-05-04 13:52:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by Matthew B. Tepper
Bob supposedly had problems with some off-the-beat rhythms in one passage,
and so he sat on a chair in front of Toscanini, and marked his part while
the conductor gently tapped him on the head to show him the way it went.
Merrill repeats this story in the Toscanini documentary "THE MAESTRO"
from BMG.



S.
Matthew B. Tepper
2004-05-04 14:33:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by Matthew B. Tepper
Bob supposedly had problems with some off-the-beat rhythms in one
passage, and so he sat on a chair in front of Toscanini, and marked his
part while the conductor gently tapped him on the head to show him the
way it went.
Merrill repeats this story in the Toscanini documentary "THE MAESTRO"
from BMG.
Just reissued on DVD, but *still* with the "Internationale" censored from
the OWI film of "Hymn of the Nations."
--
Matthew B. Tepper: WWW, science fiction, classical music, ducks!
My personal home page -- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/index.html
My main music page --- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/berlioz.html
To write to me, do for my address what Androcles did for the lion
Take THAT, Daniel Lin, Mark Sadek, James Lin & Christopher Chung!
Terrymelin
2004-05-02 20:16:36 UTC
Permalink
There seems to be no really great recording of this rather mediocre score.

Terry Ellsworth
Elizabeth Hubbell
2004-05-03 18:15:09 UTC
Permalink
[from Geof. Riggs; not Eliz. H., my better half]
Post by Jon A Conrad
Post by HPLeft
I was told by the DG people that Lenny thought he was retaining Alberto
Remedios rather than Jose Carreras for this role. As the story goes, he
apparently confused the two singers.
This is a rumor (probably originally a joke) that won't die. But it has
no credibility on its face: first, that DG, with its name-oriented casting,
would have considered Remedios for this role;
Granted, although Remedios, though without quite the name recognition of
a Carreras, had already sung at the Met by this point and been heard in
a b'cast to boot, so he wasn't an entire unknown in the U.S.,
particularly at that time. And the U.S. would arguably have been the
new set's chief audience. I take your point, however, that Remedios
didn't "sell" in the way that Carreras did!
Post by Jon A Conrad
second, that Bernstein would
have imagined him as the ideal casting for Tony;
Here, I might demur somewhat more: we're not necessarily talking about
"ideal" casting as such after all. Compromises were already being made
for the sake of bringing in rich operatic voices to begin with. That
being so, the question is not necessarily who is ideal but which
exciting-voiced genuinely operatic tenor might be relatively more
comfortable singing a role in English. English was Remedios's native
language, let's not forget, and I own up to finding it fairly surprising
just how natural, and also distinct and clear, Remedios in fact sounds
when singing in English translation -- not easy in Wagner, BTW
(Remedios's main claim to fame).

Obviously, Remedios is British and the role of Tony is that of an
American; yet the gulf that might separate a British-English singer from
an American-English role like Tony would be far narrower, IMHO, than the
gulf that obviously separated the struggling Carreras from that same role.

Most definitely, I can very well see precisely how -- even if the
Remedios story is pure rumor -- the Remedios story could still have
gained very strong traction nevertheless, given Remedios's clearly
easier grasp of singing in English.

Am sincerely curious, BTW: please, does Professor Conrad himself have
specific reasons for feeling that, on an artistic level, Remedios's Tony
might have been no better than Carreras's? As I say, just curious<G>.
Sincere thanks.
Post by Jon A Conrad
third, that so
knowledgeable an international opera conductor as Bernstein would have
confused the two;
But that's not the story. The story is that it was some flunky, other
than Bernstein, who jumped to the conclusion that Bernstein wanted
Carreras. It was the flunky then who confused the two tenors, according
to the story, thus perpetuating the error down the chain of command [see
closing paragraph below].
Post by Jon A Conrad
fourth, that major label casting deals are made on the
basis of a hasty confused phone call or whatever, in the manner suggested
by this story.
Actually, I tend to agree that the story is open to some question. But
I don't see it as altogether impossible that something along the
following lines _might_ have happened -- _if_, for the sake of argument,
we take it that such a mistake was made at all (a big question, of course):

Leonard Bernstein, say, a couple of years before the recording's made,
hears Remedios singing something in English in a surprisingly natural
and direct way. He's struck by the combination of clarity and ease in
Remedios's diction. He remarks casually to some idiot who doesn't know
opera from a hole in the wall that he has heard this very relaxed singer
whose name has an "os" ending doing a few things in English and doing
them very engagingly.

The idiot then sees a chance to earn some kudos and cover himself with
glory by securing this "Hispanic" singer for the Bernstein recording.
Jumping to the conclusion that it's Carreras, he contacts Carreras and,
without actually inviting him for a specific recording of any kind
(that's not his perogative), confirms with Carreras that, by a miracle,
Carreras is available on the needed dates. "WOW" he thinks in all his
Lilliputian cretinism.

He contacts the producer, or whoever is his boss, and tells her/him that
this Hispanic singer whom Bernstein likes so much is available on the
needed recording dates: "Isn't that just wonderful?!"

The boss, ignorant of any mixup, not being privy to the original
exchange with Bernstein, assumes that the flunky knows what he's talking
about, and she/he says very excited to the underling "You get Carreras
signed on right away! I can't wait to tell Lenny the second you
have a signed contract with this singer. But you first have to tell me
the second you've secured a contract. I don't want to tell Bernstein
too soon and then disappoint him. So get Carreras on board TODAY if you
can. There's a promtion for you if you do this immediately. And get
back to me the second it's a done deal."

The rest, alas, is history. The idiot secures Carreras's name on the
dotted line. The boss then joyfully tells Bernstein "Guess what? We've
got your Carreras guy. Isn't that marvelous?!"

"AAAAAARRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHH", comes the response.
"What the *&%*&*&^ &I^OIY&OO*&O 8o8i**(&*((*)& *&*(&(*()(* 90908909088
have you gone and done??!!!!!!!!! It was REMEDIOS, you morons!!!!"

"I don't see what we can do now. Carreras has already made his
arrangements. We've already gotten his name on a contract. It's done.
We thought we'd surprise you."

"Oh, you surprised me, all right!:-("

You know, human nature can be funny -- and as someone who, in a
relatively humble capacity as a sometime producer of a young singers'
series, has had to make compromises of my own after others have made
ghastly mistakes risking our good rapport with a number of very
promising performers, I can understand the urge to maintain good
relations with singers in general at all costs. To cut to the chase, I
don't see it as improbable that, having inadvertently snagged Carreras,
it was felt eventually that it would entail less headaches to continue
being nice to Carreras, not to breathe a word of the excruciating
misunderstanding to him, now that he was signed on, and to treat him as
a desired colleague as if nothing were wrong.

In short, they may have felt that it was too late now, and that it was
better not to hurt Carreras's feelings. In any case, Bernstein himself
may have figured there might be times in the future when Carreras might
well be singing with him in a real opera, and he may not have wished to
jeopardize a future professional relationship with, after all, a very
famous and a very "sellable" colleague.

I recognize that there may be problems in the initial premise of this
story. Can we really be sure that Mr. Moores acquired his story from a
strong source? But the plausibility of the story itself may not be as
far-fetched as all that, given the possibilities I've outlined here.

With sincere respect, what say you?<G>

Best,

Geoffrey Riggs (Assoluta Monster)
www.operacast.com/assoluta.htm
Matthew B. Tepper
2004-05-03 20:02:53 UTC
Permalink
Your detailed theory is an engaging one, though one must note that it is
predicated on the theory that Polygram (as the company then was) was pervaded
with stoopid underlings who, often as not, knew not what they were doing.

One would as likely believe that, say, somebody in the American hierarchy
read of DGG's plans to begin a major reissue series called "The Originals"
and passed on it because she didn't think consumers would be interested in
buying them. Couldn't happen. No way atoll, atoll. Right? ;--)
--
Matthew B. Tepper: WWW, science fiction, classical music, ducks!
My personal home page -- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/index.html
My main music page --- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/berlioz.html
To write to me, do for my address what Androcles did for the lion
Take THAT, Daniel Lin, Mark Sadek, James Lin & Christopher Chung!
Alcindoro
2004-05-04 01:17:31 UTC
Permalink
Would you have us believe that Lenny Bernstein, who was famous for his ability
play on the piano just about every score he had ever heard, from memory,
couldn't remember the differences between Jose Carreras and Alberto Remedios?
Leonard Tillman
2004-05-04 01:36:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by Alcindoro
Would you have us believe that Lenny
Bernstein, who was famous for his ability play
on the piano just about every score he had
ever heard, from memory, couldn't remember
the differences between Jose Carreras and
Alberto Remedios?
It's only a tad more plausible than Chuckie Bollman having pupils who
visit him sans gasmasks, or S. "Gassy" Silverman or Adreeka35 Stalker
having any lives whatsoever sans underaged goats, rabbits, etc.

Leonard Tillman
-------------------------------------------------
"The internet jungle can't be without its hyenas, its faux-literary
Geeks." -- Ancient Azerbaijani philosopher and part-time Amway
representative.
Elizabeth Hubbell
2004-05-04 04:43:13 UTC
Permalink
[from Geof. Riggs; not Eliz. H., my better half]
Post by Alcindoro
Would you have us believe that Lenny Bernstein, who was famous for his ability
play on the piano just about every score he had ever heard, from memory,
couldn't remember the differences between Jose Carreras and Alberto Remedios?
It's clear from a fair number of responses that I've received, both
publicly and privately, that the following statement of mine was
extremely badly written:

"He [Leonard Bernstein] remarks casually to some idiot who doesn't know
opera from a hole in the wall that he has heard this very relaxed singer
whose name has an "os" ending doing a few things in English and doing
them very engagingly."

The key phrase, and the most recklessly written one on my part, is

"whose name has an "os" ending"

where the implication seems to have been left that I'm implying that
Leonard Bernstein was the one who couldn't quite fix the tenor's name
firmly in his mind.............

WRONG!!!!! WRONG WRONG WRONG WRONG WRONG!!!!!!!!

In fact, here is what I should have written, since it conveys more
accurately precisely what I intended to say all along:

"Leonard Bernstein remarks casually to some idiot who doesn't know
opera from a hole in the wall that he has heard this very relaxed singer
doing a few things in English and doing them very engagingly. The
ignoramus can only recall later that the name that Bernstein cited ended
with something like "os" or "as". The leap to the more familiar name
Carreras rather than Remedios is the sad result of the flunky's
general ignorance of, and lack of familiarity with, the world of opera."

Anyway, the tenor's real name (Remedios) may well have ended "os". But
in telling this

C R U C I A L (!!!!!!!!!!!)

stage of the story as clumsily as I did, I am the "as":-(

Geoffrey Riggs
Jon A Conrad
2004-05-03 21:12:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by Elizabeth Hubbell
Granted, although Remedios, though without quite the name recognition of
a Carreras, had already sung at the Met by this point and been heard in
a b'cast to boot, so he wasn't an entire unknown in the U.S.,
particularly at that time.
Actually I would say that his Met appearances (a single run of ARIADNE, of
which I in fact attended one) did very little to enhance his US
recognizabiility. They led to no further engagements there, and Bacchus
very rarely gets noticed in that opera unless he's awful (which Remedios
wasn't). Probably his participation in the ENO recorded RING (which had
started to appear by that time) did vastly more for him with American
audiences.

As a total side issue, may I ask: It has always puzzled me that Mr.
Remedios didn't have more of an international career, given his many
gifts. My assumption had been that he had trouble with languages other
than English -- is this at all accurate? Is there some other explanation
(like simply preferring to remain close to home)? I remember at one point
he was mentioned (in OPERNWELT) as the likely Walther for Solti's first
MEISTERSINGER recording, but in the end it was Kollo again.
Post by Elizabeth Hubbell
Here, I might demur somewhat more: we're not necessarily talking about
"ideal" casting as such after all. Compromises were already being made
for the sake of bringing in rich operatic voices to begin with. That
being so, the question is not necessarily who is ideal but which
exciting-voiced genuinely operatic tenor might be relatively more
comfortable singing a role in English.
OK, but even in that context they were going for "name" casting. It's
clear (to me) that there was a short list of financially acceptable names
for each role -- almost every big label does this with its big projects. I
can't imagine how far down on their tenor list Remedios would come.
Post by Elizabeth Hubbell
Am sincerely curious, BTW: please, does Professor Conrad himself have
specific reasons for feeling that, on an artistic level, Remedios's Tony
might have been no better than Carreras's? As I say, just curious<G>.
Oh, I think he would definitely have been better (could hardly have been
worse, of course). I was never speaking to his artistic suitability, which
might well have been considerable. I've certainly never heard him in any
popular American musical theater material (did he ever sing anything of
that sort?), but his ease with sung English, and the quality in his
Siegfried which I described in my last OPERA NEWS review of TWILIGHT OF
THE GODS as being "appealing like an old-fashioned operetta tenor" (and I
did, and do, mean it as a compliment) might have stood him in good stead.

But that's not what's at issue. I'm talking about corporate thinking along
the lines of "we can't sell this recording without..." whoever. That's
amazingly, and harmfully, strong. Consider all the EMI recordings of
musicals conducted by McGlinn or Rattle -- most have an unfortunate piece
of casting or two, easily explained by hedging their bets with a reliable
name in the cast. Many times the person they'd never ever consider
*would* be effortlessly superior.

[entertaining and detailed story-hypothesis snipped]
Post by Elizabeth Hubbell
The idiot then sees a chance to earn some kudos and cover himself with
glory by securing this "Hispanic" singer for the Bernstein recording.
Jumping to the conclusion that it's Carreras...
See, this is where I have trouble. Deals on big-label recordings just
don't happen like that. So many people have to sign off on every little
detail. I have no problem believing in human idiocy or incompetence, but I
do believe in bureaucratic red tape. This story requires me to believe
that Deutsche Grammophon does major casting on the basis of a flunky's
guesses. (And yes, I did read all the details about bosses not knowing the
whole story, but that doesn't make it more likely for me.) One further
point I haven't raised before: by the mid 1980s, Carreras wasn't "some
Spanish tenor" or "some guy with a Spanish name" -- he was a world-famous
star and would have been spoken of by name. Lenny would certainly have
known his work well and wouldn't have considered him a discovery at this
point.
Post by Elizabeth Hubbell
You know, human nature can be funny -- and as someone who, in a
relatively humble capacity as a sometime producer of a young singers'
series, has had to make compromises of my own after others have made
ghastly mistakes risking our good rapport with a number of very
promising performers, I can understand the urge to maintain good
relations with singers in general at all costs. To cut to the chase, I
don't see it as improbable that, having inadvertently snagged Carreras,
it was felt eventually that it would entail less headaches to continue
being nice to Carreras, not to breathe a word of the excruciating
misunderstanding to him, now that he was signed on, and to treat him as
a desired colleague as if nothing were wrong.
I absolutely agree with all that you say here, but it still doesn't make
the original idea one whit more plausible for me, I'm afraid. Knowing a
record producer or two myself (of just this sort of repertoire), I know
how every single choice has to go all the way up and down the chain of
command and get discussed to death.

So, with thanks for the engagingly detailed scenario (which is indeed the
sort of conversation that might happen, in another context or business),
I'm sticking with the "official" story, which is just as artistically
irresponsible but vastly more plausible: that DG specified "tenor to be
selected from the following list in the following order, subject to
availability: 1. Placido Domingo. 2. Neil Shicoff. 3. Jose Carreras." None
of them well-suited, but all names that are deemed to "sell records."
Which, alas, is how recording decisions were and are made all the time. In
any given era when complete operatic recordings were being made, the same
handful of names were used for all of them, no matter what, because they
were "safe" (even if the recording never sold, the executive could defend
himself by pointing out that big-sell names were hired so he did all he
could).

Jon Alan Conrad
Department of Music
University of Delaware
***@udel.edu
Elizabeth Hubbell
2004-05-03 23:23:33 UTC
Permalink
[from Geof. Riggs; not Eliz., my better half]

Sincere thanks for following this up. I believe we've pretty much
covered it all.<G>

My best,

Geoffrey Riggs (Assoluta Monster)
www.operacast.com/assoluta.htm
Post by Jon A Conrad
Post by Elizabeth Hubbell
Granted, although Remedios, though without quite the name recognition of
a Carreras, had already sung at the Met by this point and been heard in
a b'cast to boot, so he wasn't an entire unknown in the U.S.,
particularly at that time.
Actually I would say that his Met appearances (a single run of ARIADNE, of
which I in fact attended one) did very little to enhance his US
recognizabiility. They led to no further engagements there, and Bacchus
very rarely gets noticed in that opera unless he's awful (which Remedios
wasn't). Probably his participation in the ENO recorded RING (which had
started to appear by that time) did vastly more for him with American
audiences.
As a total side issue, may I ask: It has always puzzled me that Mr.
Remedios didn't have more of an international career, given his many
gifts. My assumption had been that he had trouble with languages other
than English -- is this at all accurate? Is there some other explanation
(like simply preferring to remain close to home)? I remember at one point
he was mentioned (in OPERNWELT) as the likely Walther for Solti's first
MEISTERSINGER recording, but in the end it was Kollo again.
Post by Elizabeth Hubbell
Here, I might demur somewhat more: we're not necessarily talking about
"ideal" casting as such after all. Compromises were already being made
for the sake of bringing in rich operatic voices to begin with. That
being so, the question is not necessarily who is ideal but which
exciting-voiced genuinely operatic tenor might be relatively more
comfortable singing a role in English.
OK, but even in that context they were going for "name" casting. It's
clear (to me) that there was a short list of financially acceptable names
for each role -- almost every big label does this with its big projects. I
can't imagine how far down on their tenor list Remedios would come.
Post by Elizabeth Hubbell
Am sincerely curious, BTW: please, does Professor Conrad himself have
specific reasons for feeling that, on an artistic level, Remedios's Tony
might have been no better than Carreras's? As I say, just curious<G>.
Oh, I think he would definitely have been better (could hardly have been
worse, of course). I was never speaking to his artistic suitability, which
might well have been considerable. I've certainly never heard him in any
popular American musical theater material (did he ever sing anything of
that sort?), but his ease with sung English, and the quality in his
Siegfried which I described in my last OPERA NEWS review of TWILIGHT OF
THE GODS as being "appealing like an old-fashioned operetta tenor" (and I
did, and do, mean it as a compliment) might have stood him in good stead.
But that's not what's at issue. I'm talking about corporate thinking along
the lines of "we can't sell this recording without..." whoever. That's
amazingly, and harmfully, strong. Consider all the EMI recordings of
musicals conducted by McGlinn or Rattle -- most have an unfortunate piece
of casting or two, easily explained by hedging their bets with a reliable
name in the cast. Many times the person they'd never ever consider
*would* be effortlessly superior.
[entertaining and detailed story-hypothesis snipped]
Post by Elizabeth Hubbell
The idiot then sees a chance to earn some kudos and cover himself with
glory by securing this "Hispanic" singer for the Bernstein recording.
Jumping to the conclusion that it's Carreras...
See, this is where I have trouble. Deals on big-label recordings just
don't happen like that. So many people have to sign off on every little
detail. I have no problem believing in human idiocy or incompetence, but I
do believe in bureaucratic red tape. This story requires me to believe
that Deutsche Grammophon does major casting on the basis of a flunky's
guesses. (And yes, I did read all the details about bosses not knowing the
whole story, but that doesn't make it more likely for me.) One further
point I haven't raised before: by the mid 1980s, Carreras wasn't "some
Spanish tenor" or "some guy with a Spanish name" -- he was a world-famous
star and would have been spoken of by name. Lenny would certainly have
known his work well and wouldn't have considered him a discovery at this
point.
Post by Elizabeth Hubbell
You know, human nature can be funny -- and as someone who, in a
relatively humble capacity as a sometime producer of a young singers'
series, has had to make compromises of my own after others have made
ghastly mistakes risking our good rapport with a number of very
promising performers, I can understand the urge to maintain good
relations with singers in general at all costs. To cut to the chase, I
don't see it as improbable that, having inadvertently snagged Carreras,
it was felt eventually that it would entail less headaches to continue
being nice to Carreras, not to breathe a word of the excruciating
misunderstanding to him, now that he was signed on, and to treat him as
a desired colleague as if nothing were wrong.
I absolutely agree with all that you say here, but it still doesn't make
the original idea one whit more plausible for me, I'm afraid. Knowing a
record producer or two myself (of just this sort of repertoire), I know
how every single choice has to go all the way up and down the chain of
command and get discussed to death.
So, with thanks for the engagingly detailed scenario (which is indeed the
sort of conversation that might happen, in another context or business),
I'm sticking with the "official" story, which is just as artistically
irresponsible but vastly more plausible: that DG specified "tenor to be
selected from the following list in the following order, subject to
availability: 1. Placido Domingo. 2. Neil Shicoff. 3. Jose Carreras." None
of them well-suited, but all names that are deemed to "sell records."
Which, alas, is how recording decisions were and are made all the time. In
any given era when complete operatic recordings were being made, the same
handful of names were used for all of them, no matter what, because they
were "safe" (even if the recording never sold, the executive could defend
himself by pointing out that big-sell names were hired so he did all he
could).
Jon Alan Conrad
Department of Music
University of Delaware
REG
2004-05-02 18:45:44 UTC
Permalink
I can't imagine Norman singing somewhere...it would have been completely
ponderous and funereal (no matter what the tempo). I think that Horne's
essay in the song is remarkable technically, and certainly warmer than she
often is elsewhere, but I wish it were a bit more vulnerable.
Post by Jon A Conrad
Post by HPLeft
I was told by the DG people that Lenny thought he was retaining Alberto
Remedios rather than Jose Carreras for this role. As the story goes, he
apparently confused the two singers.
This is a rumor (probably originally a joke) that won't die. But it has no
credibility on its face: first, that DG, with its name-oriented casting,
would have considered Remedios for this role; second, that Bernstein would
have imagined him as the ideal casting for Tony; third, that so
knowledgeable an international opera conductor as Bernstein would have
confused the two; fourth, that major label casting deals are made on the
basis of a hasty confused phone call or whatever, in the manner suggested
by this story. I do understand the appeal of the tale, because one would
like to think that casting Carreras in this role could only be the result
of a grotesque mistake or misunderstanding.
The reported "list" that DG gave Bernstein was: for Tony, Domingo (!),
then Shicoff, then Carreras. For Anita, Horne, then Troyanos. Te Kanawa
was apparently first choice for Maria. Horne got into the recording after
all (postdubbed) when the scheduled Jessye Norman was unavailable to
record "Somewhere."
Post by HPLeft
Carreras is clearly a weak link in
this recording, but IMHO no less of a weak link than Lenny's own
heavy-handed conducting.
The latter is arguable (I don't necessarily disagree, but it is to some
extent a matter of taste). The former is objectively verifiable
inadequacy, on the "count 1-2 and come in on 3" level.
Post by HPLeft
and a work that will benefit from the use of better vocal and orchestral
forces than are usually available in a Broadway theatre.
There's certainly room for a WEST SIDE STORY recording that satisfies the
score's considerable demands without sacrificing dramatic immediacy. But I
suspect that it will have to come from the ranks of some of the really
fine less-than-star theater singers around these days, people like Rebecca
Luker or Patti Cohenour for Maria, Debbie Gravitte for Anita, Brent
Barrett or Brian d'Arcy James for Tony, Marc Kudisch for Riff. Or others
of that ilk. It's rather surprising that nobody has tried to assemble such
a cast for recording Bernstein's most popular score.
Jon Alan Conrad
Department of Music
University of Delaware
Parterrebox
2004-05-02 19:24:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by REG
I can't imagine Norman singing somewhere..
And yet this was Bernstein's wish, which I think is indicative of his overblown
and grandiose attitude toward the whole project .
=============

parterre box
www.parterre.com
Jon A Conrad
2004-05-02 19:42:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by REG
I can't imagine Norman singing somewhere...it would have been completely
ponderous and funereal (no matter what the tempo). I think that Horne's
essay in the song is remarkable technically, and certainly warmer than she
often is elsewhere, but I wish it were a bit more vulnerable.
She certainly understands how to put the song over, but certain moments
(like the diminuendos on the upper E) seem to demand a kind of
upper-middle "float" that's not at her disposal.

It's been said, by the way, that when Norman defaulted, both Te Kanawa and
Troyanos took a crack at recording the song (a little bit of Te Kanawa's
is included in the video) in case it was decided to use one of them for
the song instead. I wonder if either of those tracks might ever be
released.

Jon Alan Conrad
Department of Music
University of Delaware
***@udel.edu
Stregata
2004-05-02 15:15:23 UTC
Permalink
I remember Carreras' outburst referring to Bernstein in that video as "Porco
Iddio," or something similar. To which Bernstein commented: "Remember, I'm
the composer."

Stregata
Post by Jon A Conrad
Post by MIFrost
I'm referring to a video I remember seeing of the rehearsal and taping
sessions they made for the operatic version of West Side Story some years
ago. If anyone remembers seeing it, LB constantly criticized Mr. Carreras
unmercifully in front of everyone. It was very embarrassing to watch.
It was. Carreras was unable to perform the written rhythms in "Something's
Coming" accurately, something I would expect any second-year music major
to be able to do.
Post by MIFrost
Carreras just took it.
Because he was in the wrong. If you consent to record a part, you show up
knowing it, however unsuitable you may be. And if you look at the video,
Bernstein didn't really "constantly criticize Mr. Carreras unmercifully"
-- he just asked him to do it again and again, till he got it right. Which
he never did. He told him where his mistakes were, but that isn't
exactly unwarranted criticism out of nowhere. (And as he left, he murmured
to his daughter, "So many problems.")
Post by MIFrost
Anyone know the background behind that episode?
DG had insisted on "acceptable star names" for each of the roles. Carreras
was third choice for Tony, Troyanos second choice for Anita. None of the
many suitable choices for the roles were even considered.
Jon Alan Conrad
Department of Music
University of Delaware
Hector
2023-09-21 15:11:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by Stregata
I remember Carreras' outburst referring to Bernstein in that video as "Porco
Iddio," or something similar. To which Bernstein commented: "Remember, I'm
the composer."
Carreras said a huge blasphemy in Italian.... that "...porco Dxx" could be translated as "holy Shxx" and in Italian is referred to no one in particular.....
Raymond Hall
2004-05-02 22:50:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jon A Conrad
Post by MIFrost
I'm referring to a video I remember seeing of the rehearsal and taping
sessions they made for the operatic version of West Side Story some years
ago. If anyone remembers seeing it, LB constantly criticized Mr. Carreras
unmercifully in front of everyone. It was very embarrassing to watch.
It was. Carreras was unable to perform the written rhythms in "Something's
Coming" accurately, something I would expect any second-year music major
to be able to do.
Post by MIFrost
Carreras just took it.
Because he was in the wrong. If you consent to record a part, you show up
knowing it, however unsuitable you may be. And if you look at the video,
Bernstein didn't really "constantly criticize Mr. Carreras unmercifully"
-- he just asked him to do it again and again, till he got it right. Which
he never did. He told him where his mistakes were, but that isn't
exactly unwarranted criticism out of nowhere. (And as he left, he murmured
to his daughter, "So many problems.")
I think that about sums it up. Lenny lost his rag (not without reason imo),
because Carreras (a great singer in the right repertoire), just couldn't
cope with being able to let go, and drop the great Operatic "stiffness" not
required in a song like Maria. He was basically a bad choice for the part,
and essentially chosen because of marketing reasons (I suspect).

Any number of the better pop singers could have coped far more admirably
than Carreras.

Ray, Taree, NSW

See You Tamara (Ozzy Osbourne)
Larry Rinkel
2004-05-03 11:50:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by Raymond Hall
I think that about sums it up. Lenny lost his rag (not without reason imo),
because Carreras (a great singer in the right repertoire), just couldn't
cope with being able to let go, and drop the great Operatic "stiffness" not
required in a song like Maria. He was basically a bad choice for the part,
and essentially chosen because of marketing reasons (I suspect).
Any number of the better pop singers could have coped far more admirably
than Carreras.
Personally, I'm more than happy to keep Carol Lawrence and Larry Kert as my
only WSS!
OndineUno
2004-05-02 17:58:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by MIFrost
It was very embarrassing to watch.
Carreras just took it. Anyone know the background behind that episode?
Probably Carreas wouldn't crawl into bed with the old fruitcake and Lenny got
pissed, as those turds do, and he just decided to insult the hell out of him.
Carreras was stupid to put up with that old fraud, a failure as a composer and
a hack as a conductor. oo
Michael Hetsko
2004-05-02 18:04:58 UTC
Permalink
, a failure as a composer and
Post by OndineUno
a hack as a conductor. oo
And you, of course, just crank out the hits and have a full time job on the
podium.
Tepperpotamus
2004-05-04 05:09:48 UTC
Permalink
Because Carreras is ridiculous. Watch any 3 tenors video to see what a
grotesque ass he is.
Leonard Tillman
2004-05-04 06:22:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tepperpotamus
Because Carreras is ridiculous. Watch any 3
tenors video to see what a grotesque ass he
is.
I have, and he's nothing of the kind.

Leonard Tillman
-------------------------------------------------
"The internet jungle can't be without its hyenas, its faux-literary
Geeks." -- Ancient Azerbaijani philosopher and part-time Amway
representative.
MarianneLuban
2004-05-04 08:00:06 UTC
Permalink
Subject: Re: Why did Lenny ridicule Carreras?
Date: 5/3/2004 11:22 PM Pacific Daylight Time
Post by Tepperpotamus
Because Carreras is ridiculous. Watch any 3
tenors video to see what a grotesque ass he
is.
I have, and he's nothing of the kind.
That's right. In the first "3 Tenors" video he sounds shaky because he had
undergone treatment for leukemia. But, in the last "3 Tenors" video I saw, he
sang very well--and certainly better than Pavarotti, whose vocal problems were
now very evident.


"THE EXODUS CHRONICLES: Beliefs, Legends & Rumors from Antiquity Regarding the
Exodus of the Jews from Egypt" by Marianne Luban
You'll never think about the Biblical Book of Exodus in the same way again!
http://www.geocities.com/scribelist/Exodus2.html
Jeffrey
2004-05-04 08:25:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by MarianneLuban
Subject: Re: Why did Lenny ridicule Carreras?
Date: 5/3/2004 11:22 PM Pacific Daylight Time
Post by Tepperpotamus
Because Carreras is ridiculous. Watch any 3
tenors video to see what a grotesque ass he
is.
I have, and he's nothing of the kind.
That's right. In the first "3 Tenors" video he sounds shaky because he had
undergone treatment for leukemia.
Don't agree.
In fact, I thought his Core 'n grato one of the finest I've ever heard.
--
Jeffrey
Post by MarianneLuban
But, in the last "3 Tenors" video I saw, he
sang very well--and certainly better than Pavarotti, whose vocal problems were
now very evident.
"THE EXODUS CHRONICLES: Beliefs, Legends & Rumors from Antiquity Regarding the
Exodus of the Jews from Egypt" by Marianne Luban
You'll never think about the Biblical Book of Exodus in the same way again!
http://www.geocities.com/scribelist/Exodus2.html
Leonard Tillman
2004-05-04 09:36:55 UTC
Permalink
"I have, and he's nothing of the kind."
Post by Tepperpotamus
That's right. In the first "3 Tenors" video he
sounds shaky because he had undergone
treatment for leukemia.
Don't agree.
In fact, I thought his Core 'n grato one of the
finest I've ever heard.
You actually *do* agree, but are plainly too stupid and knee-jerk
contrary to even realize it.

The idea of JC's being "shaky sounding due to his treatment" doesn't
contradict the fact that his Core n'grato was done beautifully in
essence, regarding emotion and technique.

Of course, you can now debate the meaning of "being" or "that" as I'm
sure you'll choose to.
--
Post by Tepperpotamus
Jeffrey
Leonard Tillman
-------------------------------------------------
"The internet jungle can't be without its hyenas, its faux-literary
Geeks." -- Ancient Azerbaijani philosopher and part-time Amway
representative.
Jim OlsEn
2004-05-04 12:34:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by Leonard Tillman
"I have, and he's nothing of the kind."
Post by Tepperpotamus
That's right. In the first "3 Tenors" video he
sounds shaky because he had undergone
treatment for leukemia.
Don't agree.
In fact, I thought his Core 'n grato one of the
finest I've ever heard.
You actually *do* agree, but are plainly too stupid and knee-jerk
contrary to even realize it.
The idea of JC's being "shaky sounding due to his treatment" doesn't
contradict the fact that his Core n'grato was done beautifully in
essence, regarding emotion and technique.
Of course, you can now debate the meaning of "being" or "that" as I'm
sure you'll choose to.
--
Post by Tepperpotamus
Jeffrey
Leonard Tillman
-------------------------------------------------
"The internet jungle can't be without its hyenas, its faux-literary
Geeks." -- Ancient Azerbaijani philosopher and part-time Amway
representative.
Leonard Tillman
2004-05-04 13:53:43 UTC
Permalink
Another of Boll's best posts:
MarianneLuban
2004-05-04 16:32:31 UTC
Permalink
Subject: Re: Why did Lenny ridicule Carreras?
Date: 5/4/2004 1:25 AM Pacific Daylight Time
Post by MarianneLuban
Subject: Re: Why did Lenny ridicule Carreras?
Date: 5/3/2004 11:22 PM Pacific Daylight Time
Post by Tepperpotamus
Because Carreras is ridiculous. Watch any 3
tenors video to see what a grotesque ass he
is.
I have, and he's nothing of the kind.
That's right. In the first "3 Tenors" video he sounds shaky because he
had
Post by MarianneLuban
undergone treatment for leukemia.
Don't agree.
In fact, I thought his Core 'n grato one of the finest I've ever heard.
--
Yep. On his recording of Neapolitan songs. But on the first "3 Tenors" video
Carreras sang way below his own standard. I was very glad to see, later, that
he regained vocal strength and thought he did the best job in the last "3
Tenors" recital.
Leonard Tillman
2004-05-04 08:23:26 UTC
Permalink
From: ***@aol.comnospam (MarianneLuban)
Subject: Re: Why did Lenny ridicule Carreras?
From: ***@webtv.net (Leonard Tillman)
Date: 5/3/2004 11:22 PM Pacific Daylight Time
Post by Tepperpotamus
Because Carreras is ridiculous. Watch any 3
tenors video to see what a grotesque ass he
is.
"I have, and he's nothing of the kind. "
Post by Tepperpotamus
That's right. In the first "3 Tenors" video he
sounds shaky because he had undergone
treatment for leukemia.
Yes, but why should RMO's "authorities" cut him some slack - when it's
so much easier to cut him?
Post by Tepperpotamus
But, in the last "3 Tenors" video I saw, he sang
very well--and certainly better than Pavarotti,
whose vocal problems were now very
evident.
Of the three, he's typically and seemingly "the least prominent",
"the little guy" -- yet - the most profound in temperament and style.
It's evident in nearly all of the roles he shares with them, too, e.g.,
Boheme's Rodolfo and Werther.
Post by Tepperpotamus
"THE EXODUS CHRONICLES: Beliefs,
Legends & Rumors from Antiquity Regarding
the Exodus of the Jews from Egypt" by
Marianne Luban You'll never think about the
Biblical Book of Exodus in the same way
again!
http://www.geocities.com/scribelist/Exodus2.ht
ml
Best,

Leonard Tillman
-------------------------------------------------
"The internet jungle can't be without its hyenas, its faux-literary
Geeks." -- Ancient Azerbaijani philosopher and part-time Amway
representative.
Ron Dargenio
2004-05-04 10:02:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by Leonard Tillman
Post by Leonard Tillman
Of the three, he's typically and seemingly "the least prominent",
"the little guy" -- yet - the most profound in temperament and style.
It's evident in nearly all of the roles he shares with them, too, e.g.,
Boheme's Rodolfo and Werther.
My feeling exactly!!
RD
donpaolo
2004-05-04 13:26:13 UTC
Permalink
Yes - I'm surprised that Pav & Plathi didn't get poor Jose between them,
extend their arms to the side nearest him & completely cover the little guy
from view! (From The Art of Upstaging 101)

Agree that Jose did his best to maintain his dignity, despite being in the
company of the other 2 clowns in those Three Ring Circuses.

DonP.
Subject: Re: Why did Lenny ridicule Carreras?
Date: 5/3/2004 11:22 PM Pacific Daylight Time
Post by Tepperpotamus
Because Carreras is ridiculous. Watch any 3
tenors video to see what a grotesque ass he
is.
"I have, and he's nothing of the kind. "
Post by Tepperpotamus
That's right. In the first "3 Tenors" video he
sounds shaky because he had undergone
treatment for leukemia.
Yes, but why should RMO's "authorities" cut him some slack - when it's
so much easier to cut him?
Post by Tepperpotamus
But, in the last "3 Tenors" video I saw, he sang
very well--and certainly better than Pavarotti,
whose vocal problems were now very
evident.
Of the three, he's typically and seemingly "the least prominent",
"the little guy" -- yet - the most profound in temperament and style.
It's evident in nearly all of the roles he shares with them, too, e.g.,
Boheme's Rodolfo and Werther.
Post by Tepperpotamus
"THE EXODUS CHRONICLES: Beliefs,
Legends & Rumors from Antiquity Regarding
the Exodus of the Jews from Egypt" by
Marianne Luban You'll never think about the
Biblical Book of Exodus in the same way
again!
http://www.geocities.com/scribelist/Exodus2.ht
ml
Best,
Leonard Tillman
-------------------------------------------------
"The internet jungle can't be without its hyenas, its faux-literary
Geeks." -- Ancient Azerbaijani philosopher and part-time Amway
representative.
Steve Silverman
2004-05-04 13:34:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by donpaolo
Yes - I'm surprised that Pav & Plathi didn't get poor Jose between them,
extend their arms to the side nearest him & completely cover the little guy
from view! (From The Art of Upstaging 101)
I don't know about Pavarotti, but Domingo seems to be widely acknowledged as
a professional and considerate colleague. Why would he do that?

Steve Silverman
donpaolo
2004-05-04 13:56:10 UTC
Permalink
"Anything for a laugh".

DonP.
Post by Steve Silverman
Post by donpaolo
Yes - I'm surprised that Pav & Plathi didn't get poor Jose between them,
extend their arms to the side nearest him & completely cover the little
guy
Post by donpaolo
from view! (From The Art of Upstaging 101)
I don't know about Pavarotti, but Domingo seems to be widely acknowledged as
a professional and considerate colleague. Why would he do that?
Steve Silverman
Leonard Tillman
2004-05-04 13:56:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by Steve Silverman
I don't know about Pavarotti,
Nor much anything else beyond trolling.
Post by Steve Silverman
Steve Silverman
Leonard Tillman
-------------------------------------------------
"The internet jungle can't be without its hyenas, its faux-literary
Geeks." -- Ancient Azerbaijani philosopher and part-time Amway
representative.
Paul Schneider
2004-05-04 17:30:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by Leonard Tillman
Post by Steve Silverman
I don't know about Pavarotti,
Nor much anything else beyond trolling
Flapping irrelevantly into yet another thread to dispense gratuitous insults.
You're a perfect fool.

And you owe Steve Silverman an apology, you unconscionable old poof.

Paul Schneider
===================================
"Some rise by sin and some by virtue fall" -- Measure for Measure
Leonard Tillman
2004-05-04 17:57:57 UTC
Permalink
The Great-Beaked Lady Beaknell:

<snip>

Flapping irrelevantly into yet another thread to dispense gratuitous
insults. You're a perfect fool, Beaknell-Scheissie.

Plus, you and Steve Silverman owe me 7 billion apologies, you
unconscionable old spelling-Queen.

Leonard Tillman
-------------------------------------------------
"The internet jungle can't be without its hyenas, its faux-literary
Geeks." -- Ancient Azerbaijani philosopher and part-time Amway
representative.
Jeffrey
2004-05-04 10:06:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by Leonard Tillman
Post by Tepperpotamus
Because Carreras is ridiculous. Watch any 3
tenors video to see what a grotesque ass he
is.
I have, and he's nothing of the kind.
I'm worried. I agree with you.
--
Jeffrey
Post by Leonard Tillman
Leonard Tillman
-------------------------------------------------
"The internet jungle can't be without its hyenas, its faux-literary
Geeks." -- Ancient Azerbaijani philosopher and part-time Amway
representative.
Leonard Tillman
2004-05-04 13:52:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jeffrey
I'm worried. I agree with you.
YOU"RE worried?? This is unacceptable to me!
--
Post by Jeffrey
Jeffrey
Leonard Tillman
-------------------------------------------------
"The internet jungle can't be without its hyenas, its faux-literary
Geeks." -- Ancient Azerbaijani philosopher and part-time Amway
representative.
Alcindoro
2004-05-04 17:50:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tepperpotamus
Because Carreras is ridiculous. Watch any 3 tenors video to see what a
grotesque ass he is.<

I would not be anywhere so harsh on Josep, but he does have a weird tick
whereby one of his eyebrows raises WAY up and quivers... only equalled in
fascination in my experiece by Jennifer Vyvyan's pulsating tongue in the OWEN
WINGRAVE video.
Leonard Tillman
2004-05-04 18:00:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tepperpotamus
Because Carreras is ridiculous. Watch any 3
tenors video to see what a
grotesque ass he is.<
I would not be anywhere so harsh on Josep,
but he does have a weird tick whereby one of
his eyebrows raises WAY up and quivers...
only equalled in fascination in my experiece
by Jennifer Vyvyan's pulsating tongue in the
OWEN WINGRAVE video.
David Frye had a similar tongue-schtick with his Bill Buckley Jr.
impression over thirty years ago.

Leonard Tillman
-------------------------------------------------
"The internet jungle can't be without its hyenas, its faux-literary
Geeks." -- Ancient Azerbaijani philosopher and part-time Amway
representative.
REG
2004-05-05 00:22:04 UTC
Permalink
I always knew there was a reason Vyvyan was one of my favorite singers :)
Seriously, I didn't know she appeared in any videos, and I'm appreciative of
the information. Will try to get it at the Library.
Post by Alcindoro
Post by Tepperpotamus
Because Carreras is ridiculous. Watch any 3 tenors video to see what a
grotesque ass he is.<
I would not be anywhere so harsh on Josep, but he does have a weird tick
whereby one of his eyebrows raises WAY up and quivers... only equalled in
fascination in my experiece by Jennifer Vyvyan's pulsating tongue in the OWEN
WINGRAVE video.
Richard Loeb
2004-05-05 00:55:09 UTC
Permalink
Didn't Vyvyan die rather young of cancer???? Richard
Post by REG
I always knew there was a reason Vyvyan was one of my favorite singers :)
Seriously, I didn't know she appeared in any videos, and I'm appreciative of
the information. Will try to get it at the Library.
Post by Alcindoro
Post by Tepperpotamus
Because Carreras is ridiculous. Watch any 3 tenors video to see what a
grotesque ass he is.<
I would not be anywhere so harsh on Josep, but he does have a weird tick
whereby one of his eyebrows raises WAY up and quivers... only equalled in
fascination in my experiece by Jennifer Vyvyan's pulsating tongue in the
OWEN
Post by Alcindoro
WINGRAVE video.
REG
2004-05-05 00:49:35 UTC
Permalink
Yes, I believe in her early 50s.Originally a mezzo. Her Mozart Ch'io mi
scordi di te is one of the very best.
Post by Richard Loeb
Didn't Vyvyan die rather young of cancer???? Richard
Post by REG
I always knew there was a reason Vyvyan was one of my favorite singers :)
Seriously, I didn't know she appeared in any videos, and I'm
appreciative
Post by Richard Loeb
of
Post by REG
the information. Will try to get it at the Library.
Post by Alcindoro
Post by Tepperpotamus
Because Carreras is ridiculous. Watch any 3 tenors video to see what a
grotesque ass he is.<
I would not be anywhere so harsh on Josep, but he does have a weird tick
whereby one of his eyebrows raises WAY up and quivers... only equalled
in
Post by REG
Post by Alcindoro
fascination in my experiece by Jennifer Vyvyan's pulsating tongue in the
OWEN
Post by Alcindoro
WINGRAVE video.
Richard Loeb
2004-05-05 01:17:06 UTC
Permalink
As are her Handel recordings which really should be issued on CD (from the
Oiseau Lyre series) her Semele has an edge to it that I really like Richard
Post by REG
Yes, I believe in her early 50s.Originally a mezzo. Her Mozart Ch'io mi
scordi di te is one of the very best.
Post by Richard Loeb
Didn't Vyvyan die rather young of cancer???? Richard
Post by REG
I always knew there was a reason Vyvyan was one of my favorite singers
:)
Post by Richard Loeb
Post by REG
Seriously, I didn't know she appeared in any videos, and I'm
appreciative
Post by Richard Loeb
of
Post by REG
the information. Will try to get it at the Library.
Post by Alcindoro
Post by Tepperpotamus
Because Carreras is ridiculous. Watch any 3 tenors video to see
what
Post by REG
a
Post by Richard Loeb
Post by REG
Post by Alcindoro
grotesque ass he is.<
I would not be anywhere so harsh on Josep, but he does have a weird
tick
Post by Richard Loeb
Post by REG
Post by Alcindoro
whereby one of his eyebrows raises WAY up and quivers... only equalled
in
Post by REG
Post by Alcindoro
fascination in my experiece by Jennifer Vyvyan's pulsating tongue in
the
Post by Richard Loeb
Post by REG
OWEN
Post by Alcindoro
WINGRAVE video.
Sam Pemberton
2004-05-17 03:03:59 UTC
Permalink
This "Making of the Recording" DVD is available from Deutsche Grammophon:
073 017-9.

Carreras was having trouble counting a section in "Maria," Bernstein's
irritation is obvious, as is Carreras's frustration. What seems to really
upset "Pepe" is that the orchestra's service time is up; the day's rehearsal
has to stop. The next chapter on the DVD is Carreras discussing the
interruption, followed by the next day's conclusion of the "Maria"
recording, with no entrance problems.

The DVD booklet background on the recording states, "...both artists
confirmed later that no personal offence had been intended or taken, and the
general goodwill was rewarded next day with a resplendent high note that
rounded off the takes in triumph."
Matthew B. Tepper
2004-05-17 03:37:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sam Pemberton
073 017-9.
Carreras was having trouble counting a section in "Maria," Bernstein's
irritation is obvious, as is Carreras's frustration. What seems to really
upset "Pepe" is that the orchestra's service time is up; the day's
rehearsal has to stop. The next chapter on the DVD is Carreras discussing
the interruption, followed by the next day's conclusion of the "Maria"
recording, with no entrance problems.
I thought he was having problems with the rhythms in "Something's Coming."
Post by Sam Pemberton
The DVD booklet background on the recording states, "...both artists
confirmed later that no personal offence had been intended or taken, and
the general goodwill was rewarded next day with a resplendent high note
that rounded off the takes in triumph."
--
Matthew B. Tepper: WWW, science fiction, classical music, ducks!
My personal home page -- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/index.html
My main music page --- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/berlioz.html
To write to me, do for my address what Androcles did for the lion
Take THAT, Daniel Lin, Mark Sadek, James Lin & Christopher Chung!
Alcindoro
2004-05-17 04:53:51 UTC
Permalink
Carreras was having trouble counting a section in "Maria,"<
He was having trouble getting the rhythms in "Something's Comin'", not "Maria",
specifically the line "with a click, with a shock/phone'll jingle, door'll
knock..." and the like.
a resplendent high note that rounded off the takes in triumph."<
And yet Carreras' ineptitude (and inaptitude) is preserved in the recording for
all posterity.
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