Discussion:
Frau ohne Schatten thoughts
(too old to reply)
alex
2004-04-01 22:44:25 UTC
Permalink
<some snips throughout>
The first thought was how sumptuously this is orchestrated and the
second thought was about how beautiful Behrens could sound (I suppose
this really stood out as the last time I heard/saw this work was the
Solti DvD with Marton as the Farberin).
Good Farberinnen seem to be extremely difficult to find; even Lotte
Lehmann, who created the role (and who Strauss was thinking of to some
degree when he *wrote* the role) didn't sing it for long.
Lehmann alludes to some of the difficulties of the role in Five Operas
by Richard Strauss, including the wide range (some phrases written "as
though for a low contralto"--her words) as well as the highly
instrumental quality of the writing. In particular, she also mentions
a discussion she had with Strauss regarding the rather odd range
writing for soprano. Lehmann recalls,

"...[Strauss] told me that he was terribly fond of hearing a soprano
singing at a lower pitch--not a true alto, that is, but the always
somewhat strange sound of a high voice being forced to sing below its
natural register. 'Not every soprano has your unusual range,' he
added. 'And every note has to be there, even if it is being
whispered.'" (45)


Also interesting is the continuation of the book, concerning Octavian:


"On that same occasion I asked him why he had written the part of
Octavian...for a female voice. I remember how he looked at me in
utter amazement. 'Have you ever seen a man young enough to play
Octavian and at the same time experienced enough to be an accomplished
actor?' he asked. 'Where would you find someone like that? Besides,
writing for three sopranos was a challenge. I think I did the right
thing.' I rather think so myself." (45)

which certainly is interesting given the current practice (and the
discussion thereof on RMO) of engaging otherwise self-proclaimed
mezzos as Octavian.
I also dug out my copy of the Karajan dress rehearsal recording and
popped over to the library to sample parts of the 1955 Bohm recording
on Decca. Also did some reading--the chapter in Lotte Lehmann's Five
Operas by Richard Strauss and the non-tabular bits of an analysis book
by Sherrill Hahn Pantle.
Pantle is one of the few (in fact, may well be the only) analytical
books on the work in English; as I've read it, I've always been struck
by the fact that given the date of the book, the author (most likely)
couldn't have ever heard the work complete. The first complete
recording was Sawallisch in 1988, and I think that most all stage
productions up to then (excepting the premieres) were heavily cut.
It was certainly one of two books that I had marked down to check
out--unfortunately, the other I could not find, but i think it was
about something else, though still concerning FroSch.

It's definitely interesting to put the book within that
context--Pantle also mentions traditional cuts at traditional points.
I believe the analysis, regardless, is performed on the score in its
entirety and is certainly interesting to read and is rewarding, even
with my pained translation of some of the german quotations. Anybody
interested in analyzing FroSch, both on a fairly detailed theoretical
level and in a more interpretive level, would find lots of interesting
things.
If you're interested in further reading, I'd recommend tracking down
the translation of Hofmannsthal's prose scenario, which is out of
print and hard to find. There's very little literature dealing solely
with the opera--you run into it in discussions of other things. I'd
be happy to dig out more citations, if anyone is interested.
I'm always happy to read more, so I'd like to see some citations--but
I also have 0 command of the german language. I can certainly look
into finding the Hofmannsthal's prose narrative. I can't imagine that
I can't find it here. might as well abuse the library privilege I
have here until I graduate =)
Studer gives a good performance--but the launches and pushes into the
extremes of the registers can be jolting, but the basic tone quality
is quite beautiful and apt for the Empress, whom Hofmannsthal and
Strauss seemed to have gone great lengths to portray as a being of
light, crystalline solidity, and purity. The entrance music is rather
slipshod, but it's really quite difficult music, so she's forgiven.
Just curious, are you thinking of Studer in the live Solti video or
the Sawallisch studio recording? I agree with that for the Solti, but
thanks to the marvels of studios, the Sawallisch is really clean and
lovely.
Studer in the live Solti DVD, sorry--I should have been clearer. I
definitely think that the Sawallisch will be next on my acquisition
list of FroSch media. though i might make myself a liar and get the
Steber Carnegie Hall marathon recital disc first... *sigh* while I'm
at it, I should also wish for some money so that I can attend the next
Met performance of the work...speaking of--when is that happening?
sometime next year? beyond?
Varady isn't as appropriate tonally for the Empress as Studer is, but
she more than makes up for it in a very involved and dramatically apt
reading. I'm always appreciative of her relishing of the consonants
and words. But, and this is true of Janowitz as well (though i think
Janowitz is better), the big dramatic arc isn't as compelling as the
little dramatic moments, and so the going gets a bit tough in Act III
when it comes to the Empress to carry quite a bit of this act that is
pretty static in terms of conflict and not as inspired musically (who
here likes the final quartet? because could you explain the appeal to
me please because i can't quite seem to get it).
I'll take a go; it's *C major* when you haven't had too much of that
key throughout the opera (and all of Strauss' keys sound a little
different; he thinks of them differently). It's the only time in the
opera that all four major players are together and working together.
Barak, as the grand Everyman, leads it off, Kaiser finally gets to
sing with other people (extending from the duet with Kaiserin), the
two women really come together, and the ending of it just a fabulous
triumphant noise, with the three high voices taking the High C. I
agree that the passage right after it is a little too bombastic, but
that's always redeemed for me by the fade out ending with the violin
melody rising up out of the orchestra again. One theme turns into
another so smoothly...
Despite all of these features, I find the actual quartet itself
lacking--that and the fact that the stuff leading up to it is also
kind of forgettable. or extremely so. maybe i just need to listen to
it more. I just can't really get into it--it might be that with all
of this expectation, there's no possible way that this quartet could
be special enough. I mean, it's pleasant enough. And part of this
just may be an aspect of the recordings I've listened to. I might
have to return to the '55 Bohm for a listen to this quartet since I
didn't get a chance to last I went to the library.
However, the drawbacks to
this set, though, are pretty substantial. Karajan leaves the
realization of it rather limp, certainly not anything like Bohm's
fiery involved reading--not to mention the score is heavily
re-organized according to the notes. The men are also rather
forgettable (Thomas does get better as the opera goes along) though
the Farberin and the Nurse are both excellently sung. Also a side
note: this set probably has the best Keeper of the Temple in Lucia
Popp and Wunderlich is the Youth's voice!
The score is so heavily reorganized as to make a real dramatic hash
out of Act II in Karajan's version; this seems to be done to avoid
having to make 4 set changes, I think.
reasonable, if completely lamentable :( Pantle (or was it Lehmann
herself?) also makes note of the supreme difficulty in staging all of
the fantastical effects basically required by the score. It's
certainly one of the delicious if nightmarish challenges for
productions of this opera.
anyhow, to wrap this up a bit short, is that should this opera be your
cup of tea, there are definitely recordings out there full of merits.
don't discount janowitz in this role--she is amazingly effective.
Based on this recording, I wish she had pursued this more while she
still had the considerable vocal goods for it--her reading only lacks
a more dramatic conductor to give her a little nudge here and there,
she's generally fantastic, and time to grow into the role.
I will repeat my plug for the Sawallisch, made before; depite the
rather squally Farberin, occasionally pinched Kaiser, and slightly
nondescript Barak, I still think it makes the greatest impression for
the work as a work. The sound of the orchestration comes through
better than the Bohm because of the superior sound quality, and
Sawallisch has a comparable command of making passages that can sound
like noise really sound musical.
Great to see another FrOSch fan around here...the piano/vocal score is
now available from Dover, too!
-Nora
(Strauss Monster!)
yay! that's exciting! what are your thoughts on the sinopoli?

oh, and since you are a strauss monster, positions on Ariadne I vs.
Ariadne II? Also, how is Liebe der Danae, specifically, the recording
with Lauren Flanigan? And, because I'm a training baritone--thoughts
on the "Strauss Baritone?"

-alex
Nora Renka
2004-04-02 01:33:12 UTC
Permalink
alex wrote:

<snips Lehmann's comments>
Post by alex
"On that same occasion I asked him why he had written the part of
Octavian...for a female voice. I remember how he looked at me in
utter amazement. 'Have you ever seen a man young enough to play
Octavian and at the same time experienced enough to be an accomplished
actor?' he asked. 'Where would you find someone like that? Besides,
writing for three sopranos was a challenge. I think I did the right
thing.' I rather think so myself." (45)
I think he's really right on both Octavian and der Komponist, giving them to a soprano (not a mezzo)--and
that it's a fundamentally dramatic and musical choice, so I don't put much credence in some of the sillier
conclusions drawn about those being trouser roles.

Lehmann's book is really interesting. Another singer book with some good Strauss commentary is Astrid
Varnay's--probably my favorite Elektra.
Post by alex
Pantle is one of the few (in fact, may well be the only) analytical
books on the work in English; as I've read it, I've always been struck
by the fact that given the date of the book, the author (most likely)
couldn't have ever heard the work complete. The first complete
recording was Sawallisch in 1988, and I think that most all stage
productions up to then (excepting the premieres) were heavily cut.
It was certainly one of two books that I had marked down to check
out--unfortunately, the other I could not find, but i think it was
about something else, though still concerning FroSch.
Do you have a title? There's a book that discusses Helena in at least some detail...looking in Orbis, I see
some other works in German on FroSch, but I haven't bothered to look in more specialized catalogs. Just out
of curiosity.
Post by alex
It's definitely interesting to put the book within that
context--Pantle also mentions traditional cuts at traditional points.
I believe the analysis, regardless, is performed on the score in its
entirety and is certainly interesting to read and is rewarding, even
with my pained translation of some of the german quotations. Anybody
interested in analyzing FroSch, both on a fairly detailed theoretical
level and in a more interpretive level, would find lots of interesting
things.
Yes; I'd *love* to see someone take on the music at a greater depth and with some of the analytical tools
which have been developed since the book was written, especially transformational theory. I do remember not
agreeing with a lot of things in it--but both copies are checked out at present and I know who has them, and I
don't want to recall them when they're being used. Ask me again in a few months...
Post by alex
I'm always happy to read more, so I'd like to see some citations--but
I also have 0 command of the german language. I can certainly look
into finding the Hofmannsthal's prose narrative. I can't imagine that
I can't find it here. might as well abuse the library privilege I
have here until I graduate =)
Here's the full citation:
The woman without a shadow = Die frau ohne Schatten / Hugo von Hofmannsthal ; translated by Jean Hollander.
Published: Lewiston, N.Y. : E. Mellen Press, c1993.
Series: Studies in the history and interpretation of music ; v. 39

It's...interesting. I think the libretto stands on its own without it (contra some of the critics), but it
does expand some of Hofmannsthal's ideas.
Post by alex
Studer in the live Solti DVD, sorry--I should have been clearer. I
definitely think that the Sawallisch will be next on my acquisition
list of FroSch media. though i might make myself a liar and get the
Steber Carnegie Hall marathon recital disc first... *sigh* while I'm
at it, I should also wish for some money so that I can attend the next
Met performance of the work...speaking of--when is that happening?
sometime next year? beyond?
FrOSch was played at the Met this year (with cuts! Grrr!) and it's not back next year, so I wouldn't look for
it for at least a little while...I'm not terribly crazy about the production, reviewed it here on r.m.o. when
first I saw it, but would be happy to expand on that if requested.

I got the Sawallisch from the Berkshire Record Outlet--it might still be available from there!
Post by alex
Despite all of these features, I find the actual quartet itself
lacking--that and the fact that the stuff leading up to it is also
kind of forgettable. or extremely so. maybe i just need to listen to
it more. I just can't really get into it--it might be that with all
of this expectation, there's no possible way that this quartet could
be special enough. I mean, it's pleasant enough. And part of this
just may be an aspect of the recordings I've listened to. I might
have to return to the '55 Bohm for a listen to this quartet since I
didn't get a chance to last I went to the library.
For me it's one of those things that works better on stage, or in a really concentrated playthrough; I have
yet to make clear to myself how it really fits in with things, although I trust Strauss enough to be fairly
sure that it does.
Post by alex
reasonable, if completely lamentable :( Pantle (or was it Lehmann
herself?) also makes note of the supreme difficulty in staging all of
the fantastical effects basically required by the score. It's
certainly one of the delicious if nightmarish challenges for
productions of this opera.
It's a real terror to produce. Let me recommend Hartmann's book on the stagings of the operas for the
production pictures--Roller's original designs are amazing! I haven't found any place where they're all
reprinted, but I've seen a German book with more of them, especially the character designs.
Post by alex
yay! that's exciting! what are your thoughts on the sinopoli?
I don't have the Sinopoli, and I haven't heard much of it (only...first scene of the opera, and Falcon
scene). I did like what I heard there, but I couldn't comment on the feel for structure.
Post by alex
oh, and since you are a strauss monster, positions on Ariadne I vs.
Ariadne II? Also, how is Liebe der Danae, specifically, the recording
with Lauren Flanigan? And, because I'm a training baritone--thoughts
on the "Strauss Baritone?"
Here goes:

I actually prefer Ariadne II, although one really should hear Ariadne I for the lovely and subtle changes in
orchestration made between the two versions. I like Ariadne II better because it's tighter and better
constructed, both in such things as Zerbinetta's aria and the Bacchus/Ariadne scene. However, the original
version of Zerbinetta's aria is truly jaw-dropping, and Sumi Jo's high F#s must be heard to be believed.
(Love to hear Dessay sing this original version, too!) (This is just comparing the Opera sections of both
works, of course...)

Danae has some uneven patches, but I do think it works as a whole--one might think of it, pace Kenneth
Birkin's article, of Act I as comedy (operetta spoofs in places such as the 5/4 march), Act II as Wagnerian
music-drama (the killer E major love duet for Midas and Danae--oh, that C# hurts), and Act III as a Straussian
synthesis, with the last scene of the opera being just absolutely glorious. The recording with Flanigan is
quite good. The conducting is not as inspired as the recording of the Krauss premiere in 1952, but one gains
from the clearer sound of the modern recording. Another note: in the full score, there are a whole ton of
sections marked for transposition, which I believe were added by Krauss: one at that killer duet, but a number
more for Jupiter, possibly the best baritone role Strauss ever wrote (Barak and Mandryka are still up there,
though). Krauss takes all of these; Botstein doesn't take the one in the duet, but takes almost all of the
others--but it's been a while since I checked that.

Jupiter is a real 'Strauss baritone' role, and it's tough. It was written for a young Hans Hotter. The
difficulty comes in the tessitura, where there are significant patches at or above middle C, going up to the G
a fifth above. More Fs than I can count. It'll drop down into the lower registers and then hop back up,
taking real agility, but also requires some extended lines up high. In some ways it's comparable to Wagner's
Wanderer--and there's a lot of affectionate Wotan parody in Act III. It's a little different from Mandryka in
that that role lies lower, but then has these bursts of high stuff. Of course, any voice singing these roles
also needs to be able to handle the orchestration...

Hope that all is good for something...

-Nora
(Strauss Monster!)
Leonard Tillman
2004-04-03 06:06:20 UTC
Permalink
"jszostaksr"
<...Walter Beery...>
I believe that should be 'Biery'. The man was
Austrian, didn't you know?.
You are so Berry, Berry stupid, Bollmann, didn't you know? Of course
you didn't, - but we do.

Leonard Tillman
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"Profanity isn't always the answer, but it's often a darn good guess."
-- Victor Ramirez

"Let us first rid ourselves of sophisms; those of depraved men and
multi-pseudonymous Geeks, and those of heartless philosophers."
-- I. Taylor Tillman.
gggg gggg
2023-01-03 05:36:43 UTC
Permalink
I've recently been on a Frau ohne Schatten kick. It started when I
decided to pop the Solti in my computer as background to work I had to
do.
The first thought was how sumptuously this is orchestrated and the
second thought was about how beautiful Behrens could sound (I suppose
this really stood out as the last time I heard/saw this work was the
Solti DvD with Marton as the Farberin).
I also dug out my copy of the Karajan dress rehearsal recording and
popped over to the library to sample parts of the 1955 Bohm recording
on Decca. Also did some reading--the chapter in Lotte Lehmann's Five
Operas by Richard Strauss and the non-tabular bits of an analysis book
by Sherrill Hahn Pantle.
All of the Empresses I've heard on recordings are very good in their
own ways, though they each have drawbacks. Rysanek, as recorded, has
a terribly opaque tone quality that suggests lack of focus from the
sound. There are also moments where I long for surer legato
negotiations of certain lines. Despite this, it's an agile reading,
short on regalness but long on hysteria which renders the
Nurse/Empress recognition scene rather short of some of its poignance,
but means the nightmare scene has some terrific Rysanek screams.
Studer gives a good performance--but the launches and pushes into the
extremes of the registers can be jolting, but the basic tone quality
is quite beautiful and apt for the Empress, whom Hofmannsthal and
Strauss seemed to have gone great lengths to portray as a being of
light, crystalline solidity, and purity. The entrance music is rather
slipshod, but it's really quite difficult music, so she's forgiven.
Varady isn't as appropriate tonally for the Empress as Studer is, but
she more than makes up for it in a very involved and dramatically apt
reading. I'm always appreciative of her relishing of the consonants
and words. But, and this is true of Janowitz as well (though i think
Janowitz is better), the big dramatic arc isn't as compelling as the
little dramatic moments, and so the going gets a bit tough in Act III
when it comes to the Empress to carry quite a bit of this act that is
pretty static in terms of conflict and not as inspired musically (who
here likes the final quartet? because could you explain the appeal to
me please because i can't quite seem to get it).
I'm going to go out on a limb and say that on record, the Empress I
return to and hear in my mind is that of Janowitz. The tone quality
of the voice is the most apt of the women I've heard--crystalline in
focus and even in strength throughout the range this role encompasses.
In a way, it lies like Traviata: the entrance music is pretty florid
and quite high. By the end of the opera, there is quite a lot of
music that must be sung richly in the middle and low registers. At
this point in her youth (she was 27 i think?) the top was ringing and
if not exactly free very dependable and more accurate than Rysanek's.
While the last edge of hysteria is not available to her, the
characterization spans a larger transformation overall--her Act III
singing is a revelation. During the confrontation scene with the
Nurse, the moment she realizes her own strength and what she must do
carries the other Empresses before her. However, the drawbacks to
this set, though, are pretty substantial. Karajan leaves the
realization of it rather limp, certainly not anything like Bohm's
fiery involved reading--not to mention the score is heavily
re-organized according to the notes. The men are also rather
forgettable (Thomas does get better as the opera goes along) though
the Farberin and the Nurse are both excellently sung. Also a side
note: this set probably has the best Keeper of the Temple in Lucia
Popp and Wunderlich is the Youth's voice!
Bohm is the best conducted of these recordings and in this opera, it
makes a huge difference in my experience. Solti, though not
particularly obtrusive, isn't particularly enlightening, either. It's
good that his Farberin is one of the most haunting (and he has a
splendid nurse too!). While every one of them has managed to do
something special with her childless speech in the first act (and
similar moments) Behrens is pretty phenomenal here.
anyhow, to wrap this up a bit short, is that should this opera be your
cup of tea, there are definitely recordings out there full of merits.
don't discount janowitz in this role--she is amazingly effective.
Based on this recording, I wish she had pursued this more while she
still had the considerable vocal goods for it--her reading only lacks
a more dramatic conductor to give her a little nudge here and there,
she's generally fantastic, and time to grow into the role.
-alex
When you think of this opera, does the 1927 film METROPOLIS come to mind?:

https://culturevulture.net/film/metropolis/

Loading...