Discussion:
Baritone to tenor..and vice-versa...
(too old to reply)
www.Handelmania.com
2006-02-20 23:11:02 UTC
Permalink
We know that Carlo Bergonzi,Raymond Gibbs,and a few others changed from
baritone to tenor and I am asking if youthink any of the following were
really in some way "lazy tenors" who just could not extend the top and
had to stay as baritones:

Thomas Hampson,Dietrich Fischer-Dieskau,Sherrill Milnes (sounds
baritonal,but might have been a Heldentenor because he has top notes
that the other two do not have)

On the other hand, Ramon Vinay ended up as a baritone,even a basso..but
that I believe is because the top was always a problem and he id have a
thick voice.

Ed...Do not tell us Placido is a basso!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Any other examples??? Charlie ( now a bass-baritone,who used to be a
castrato)
donpaolo
2006-02-20 23:48:58 UTC
Permalink
Great thread, Charlie!

There is an unfortunately little-known tenor-baritone that Dav Melnick
turned me on to, Nicholas Loren - this gentleman has to be heard to be
believed. Tremendous high notes in both categories & smooth legato singing,
combined with a true feeling for what he is singing. I believe that he has
retired, a loss to the world of opera.

There was one J. Patrick Rafferty, an excellent young up & coming baritone
in the mid-80's, with a nice high extension, who decided that he would
rather try his luck as heldontenor & has not been heard of since.

An Italian, Renato Zanelli, had a career as both tenor & baritone, but I do
not know which came first.

There is mention in the Leonard Warren bio that someone (perhaps his mentor,
Rose Bampton) recommended that he also consider becoming a heldontenor,
because of his incredible ability with top notes (I remember reading that he
had a high C, the envy of many famous tenors of today).

DonPaolo
Post by www.Handelmania.com
We know that Carlo Bergonzi,Raymond Gibbs,and a few others changed from
baritone to tenor and I am asking if youthink any of the following were
really in some way "lazy tenors" who just could not extend the top and
Thomas Hampson,Dietrich Fischer-Dieskau,Sherrill Milnes (sounds
baritonal,but might have been a Heldentenor because he has top notes
that the other two do not have)
On the other hand, Ramon Vinay ended up as a baritone,even a basso..but
that I believe is because the top was always a problem and he id have a
thick voice.
Ed...Do not tell us Placido is a basso!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Any other examples??? Charlie ( now a bass-baritone,who used to be a
castrato)
www.Handelmania.com
2006-02-21 01:55:54 UTC
Permalink
A few years ago,Nicholas Loren called me...and he sent me some
arias...Does he still sing/ I do not know where he woulod be....He
seemed very nice...CH
donpaolo
2006-02-21 20:29:33 UTC
Permalink
He's a great guy - sent me a very gracious personal thank you for my having
expressed my appreciation of his work to Dav. I think he's retired in the
midwest somewhere.

DonPaolo
Post by www.Handelmania.com
A few years ago,Nicholas Loren called me...and he sent me some
arias...Does he still sing/ I do not know where he woulod be....He
seemed very nice...CH
Sergio da Silva
2006-02-21 22:02:39 UTC
Permalink
One of the most impressive Florestan's I ever saw.
Pity later he "burned out" :-(
Post by donpaolo
He's a great guy - sent me a very gracious personal thank you for my
having expressed my appreciation of his work to Dav. I think he's retired
in the midwest somewhere.
DonPaolo
Post by www.Handelmania.com
A few years ago,Nicholas Loren called me...and he sent me some
arias...Does he still sing/ I do not know where he woulod be....He
seemed very nice...CH
David Melnick
2006-02-22 05:45:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sergio da Silva
One of the most impressive Florestan's I ever saw.
Pity later he "burned out" :-(
Hi Sergio,

Thanks! I'm such a total fan of his that I'm gratified
no end when other people have positive reactions to him.

If he "burned out," I suspect that it was not on opera or
singing, but on the opera biz, versus his need to lead a
more regular life. He sang his last public performances in
2002, and he moved away from N.Y. in 2003.

Cheers,

Dav

P.S. Grazie, Don P, for thinking of him when the topic was
proposed.
Sergio da Silva
2006-02-22 21:04:48 UTC
Permalink
Right, he simply disappeared which was a pity. He could have had a great
career as a Heldentenor.
Post by David Melnick
Post by Sergio da Silva
One of the most impressive Florestan's I ever saw.
Pity later he "burned out" :-(
Hi Sergio,
Thanks! I'm such a total fan of his that I'm gratified
no end when other people have positive reactions to him.
If he "burned out," I suspect that it was not on opera or
singing, but on the opera biz, versus his need to lead a
more regular life. He sang his last public performances in
2002, and he moved away from N.Y. in 2003.
Cheers,
Dav
P.S. Grazie, Don P, for thinking of him when the topic was
proposed.
www.Handelmania.com
2006-02-21 01:57:18 UTC
Permalink
heldontenor,
because of his incredible ability with top notes (I remember reading
that he
had a high C, the envy of many famous tenors of today).


DonPaolo


Get a pitch pipe out..and you will hear a genuine high E or E flat on
the "GILDDDDDDAH" at the end of act two Rigoletto..amazing.....ch
donpaolo
2006-02-21 20:31:01 UTC
Permalink
Hell - I thought it was "only" a C#/Dnatural parlando...:>)

DonPaolo
Post by donpaolo
heldontenor,
because of his incredible ability with top notes (I remember reading that he
had a high C, the envy of many famous tenors of today).
DonPaolo
Get a pitch pipe out..and you will hear a genuine high E or E flat on
the "GILDDDDDDAH" at the end of act two Rigoletto..amazing.....ch
dave
2006-02-21 13:48:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by donpaolo
Great thread, Charlie!
There is an unfortunately little-known tenor-baritone that Dav Melnick
turned me on to, Nicholas Loren - this gentleman has to be heard to be
believed. Tremendous high notes in both categories & smooth legato
singing, combined with a true feeling for what he is singing. I
believe that he has retired, a loss to the world of opera.
There was one J. Patrick Rafferty, an excellent young up & coming
baritone in the mid-80's, with a nice high extension, who decided that
he would rather try his luck as heldontenor & has not been heard of
since.
An Italian, Renato Zanelli, had a career as both tenor & baritone, but
I do not know which came first.
There is currently a very fine young Australian tenor - Angus Wood - who
used to sing major baritone roles for Opera Australia (Papageno, Albert
(Werther), Rossini's Figaro) before being cast as Pelleas and discovering
an ease in alt that prompted an obscenely short re-training as a tenor. He
now sings roles such as Cavaradossi and Alfredo Germont to some
considerable acclaim.

That he was a bari-hunk isn't going to hurt him as a tenor, either.





dave.
Robert Deutsch
2006-02-21 22:14:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by donpaolo
There was one J. Patrick Rafferty, an excellent young up & coming baritone
in the mid-80's, with a nice high extension, who decided that he would
rather try his luck as heldontenor & has not been heard of since.
His name is Raftery, not Rafferty, and he's been quite busy according
to his agent: http://www.deanartists.com/documents/raftery-bio.pdf.

Bob
donpaolo
2006-02-22 00:00:53 UTC
Permalink
Yes - I always manage to make that error. Thanks for the site, which I'll
check out.

DonPaolo
Post by Robert Deutsch
Post by donpaolo
There was one J. Patrick Rafferty, an excellent young up & coming baritone
in the mid-80's, with a nice high extension, who decided that he would
rather try his luck as heldontenor & has not been heard of since.
His name is Raftery, not Rafferty, and he's been quite busy according
to his agent: http://www.deanartists.com/documents/raftery-bio.pdf.
Bob
Mike Richter
2006-02-21 08:08:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by www.Handelmania.com
We know that Carlo Bergonzi,Raymond Gibbs,and a few others changed from
baritone to tenor and I am asking if youthink any of the following were
really in some way "lazy tenors" who just could not extend the top and
Thomas Hampson,Dietrich Fischer-Dieskau,Sherrill Milnes (sounds
baritonal,but might have been a Heldentenor because he has top notes
that the other two do not have)
I'd not consider any of your nominees to have been a "lazy tenor",
though each in his way has/had a tenorial quality to his upper range. Go
back a little farther to Lawrence Tibbett; there are recordings where
one has to get halfway through before realizing he was not a tenor. Yet
his role in Tristan (for example) was Marke, not Kurwenal and he
excelled as Escamillo despite the role often being taken by a basso
cantante or bass-baritone.

The ability to color the tone can be misleading. The issue is tessitura
and that is where Hampson, DFD, Milnes and many others are/were clearly
baritones. Caruso was still a tenor when singing "Vecchia zimarra",
though he colored his tone to be effective playing basso.

Mike
--
***@cpl.net
http://www.mrichter.com/
REG
2006-02-21 11:25:34 UTC
Permalink
Did anyone mention a certain Great Dane yet by the name of Melchior?
Post by www.Handelmania.com
We know that Carlo Bergonzi,Raymond Gibbs,and a few others changed from
baritone to tenor and I am asking if youthink any of the following were
really in some way "lazy tenors" who just could not extend the top and
Thomas Hampson,Dietrich Fischer-Dieskau,Sherrill Milnes (sounds
baritonal,but might have been a Heldentenor because he has top notes
that the other two do not have)
I'd not consider any of your nominees to have been a "lazy tenor", though
each in his way has/had a tenorial quality to his upper range. Go back a
little farther to Lawrence Tibbett; there are recordings where one has to
get halfway through before realizing he was not a tenor. Yet his role in
Tristan (for example) was Marke, not Kurwenal and he excelled as Escamillo
despite the role often being taken by a basso cantante or bass-baritone.
The ability to color the tone can be misleading. The issue is tessitura
and that is where Hampson, DFD, Milnes and many others are/were clearly
baritones. Caruso was still a tenor when singing "Vecchia zimarra", though
he colored his tone to be effective playing basso.
Mike
--
http://www.mrichter.com/
w***@comcast.net
2006-02-21 12:57:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by REG
Did anyone mention a certain Great Dane yet by the name of Melchior?
I think that Melchior was, like Bergonzi, simply misclassified and
misguided early in his career. To me he always sounded like a tenor,
even on his baritone recordings. Unlike, for example, Vinay, who
sounds like a baritone even on his tenor recordings.

Bill
Ken Meltzer
2006-02-21 12:43:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mike Richter
Post by www.Handelmania.com
We know that Carlo Bergonzi,Raymond Gibbs,and a few others changed from
baritone to tenor and I am asking if youthink any of the following were
really in some way "lazy tenors" who just could not extend the top and
Thomas Hampson,Dietrich Fischer-Dieskau,Sherrill Milnes (sounds
baritonal,but might have been a Heldentenor because he has top notes
that the other two do not have)
I'd not consider any of your nominees to have been a "lazy tenor",
though each in his way has/had a tenorial quality to his upper range.
I agree. And FWIW, Bergonzi said he never really thought he was a
baritone, but that his teacher was "mistaken" in placing his voice in
that range.
Best,
Ken
d***@aol.com
2006-02-21 22:40:45 UTC
Permalink
Renato Zanelli sang for a number of years as a baritone before he
switched to tenor. I have recordings from both periods of his career
and find his baritone sound far superior to his tenor. The man died
prematurely so we will never know how his tenor career would have
evolved.

It is very hard for me to think of Fischer-Dieskau as a baritone; he
sings like a lyric tenor. Baritones can sound like a tenor when they
sing piano, but F-D still sounds like a tenor when he sings forte
(which is rarely). I would like to know if F-D every tried to sing
tenor or ever sang any tenor material in key.

I also find it hard to think of Bergonzi as a baritone. His tenor is
very dark but always tenorish. And he was as comfortable with lyric
roles such as Nemorino and Alfredo as with Radames and Don Carlo. And
he never sang Otello, Samson, or other really dramatic tenor parts.

I think that Mechior was a baritone, and he considered himself
naturally a lyric baritone. He stated that only a true baritone can
become a successful heldentenor for roles such as Tristan and Siegmund.
The heldentenor has a slightly lower voice than a true tenor and
usually cannot sustain the higher placement of the Italian spinto
parts. Melchior learned Walter but found it too tiring for his voice
and restricted himself to singing a couple of the arias in concert. He
described how vocal training helped him grind down the top of his
baritone range and replace it with tenor notes. Melchior used a
peculiar technique to place his high notes and they were often pitched
and thin, a mark of a baritone singing above his natural range.

Vocal categories are merely ways of grouping voices. There are a
number of singers whose vocal cords would allow them to be either
tenors or baritones. They are borderline between the two categories.
Their temperaments, training, and ambitions lead them to choose to be
one rather than the other. (Ditto sopranos and mezzo-sopranos). If you
have really good high notes, you may choose to sing tenor, and vice
versa. Placido Domingo never sang baritone roles in opera, contrary to
the belief of many. Before his voice was full trained, he sang he sang
some baritone parts in Spanish operetta. When he became an opera
singer he started out with compimario tenor parts and then lyric roles.
I am not aware of any major singer who sang baritone and tenor roles
at the same time in their careers. It is confusing to switch back and
forth because of the different demands of baritone and tenor roles.
Opera managers might also be thrown off by having to deal with a singer
who wants to sing both Alfredo and Germont pere. Bastianini and
Hvorostovsky both sound like basses to me and Ettore started out as a
bass.

It is quite appropriate for a potential tenor to sing baritone until
the voice is ready for the higher tessitura. I sang baritone in my
high school choir and didn't realize I was a tenor until I was in my
mid-twenties. I can sing a tenor high C and also most of the low notes
of basses. Singing bass helps keep my voice relaxed and I do so
whenever possible.

Jake Drake
donpaolo
2006-02-22 00:04:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by d***@aol.com
I also find it hard to think of Bergonzi as a baritone. His tenor is
very dark but always tenorish. And he was as comfortable with lyric
roles such as Nemorino and Alfredo as with Radames and Don Carlo. And
he never sang Otello, Samson, or other really dramatic tenor parts.
Jake Drake
Radames, Alvaro, Chenier, Canio - not "really dramatic"? I think they
certainly are & Bergonzi was quite effective in these roles.

DonPaolo
d***@aol.com
2006-02-22 02:11:07 UTC
Permalink
I consider the named roles spinto, not dramatic, although a dramatic
tenor could sing them. Tucker was a spinto and sang those roles.
Corelli was a spinto and sang those roles. Domingo is a spinto and
sang those roles. Ditto Bergonzi, a spinto, or perhaps lirico-spinto.
Tucker, Corelli, and Bergonzi did not sing Otello or Samson, correct?
They generally stayed away from the most dramatic or heaviest Italian
and French tenor roles. Roles such as Radames and Alvaro are fairly
high in tessitura and require an Italian type spinto rather than a
baritonal or heldentenor type. Del Monaco sang those roles, and
Vickers at least some of them, but also Margison, Heppner, and others.
I suppose that if the vocal categories of singers are sometimes
debatable, so are the classifications of the roles themselves. Otello
can certainly be considered a hallmark of the dramatic tenor
repertoire. Spinto tenors usually stay away from this part. Domingo is
an overachiever and an exception to many of the traditions of tenor
singing, since his voice is fairly light but he began singing Otello in
his mid-thirties and then went on to Siegmund and Ghermann. But even
Domingo resisted the most arduous German roles, such as Tristan,
Tannhauser, and Walter, and sang only a few Lohengrins. These roles
may be considered the domain of the Germanic heldentenor.

Jake Drake
Sergio da Silva
2006-02-22 21:04:00 UTC
Permalink
Right on the money, no Otello not a dramatic tenor.
Corelli was a true spinto, Tucker maybe, I would still classify Tucker as a
lyric tenor closer to spinto. Bergonzi was a lyric with a stronger medium
and could colour the voice at will.
Post by d***@aol.com
I consider the named roles spinto, not dramatic, although a dramatic
tenor could sing them. Tucker was a spinto and sang those roles.
Corelli was a spinto and sang those roles. Domingo is a spinto and
sang those roles. Ditto Bergonzi, a spinto, or perhaps lirico-spinto.
Tucker, Corelli, and Bergonzi did not sing Otello or Samson, correct?
They generally stayed away from the most dramatic or heaviest Italian
and French tenor roles. Roles such as Radames and Alvaro are fairly
high in tessitura and require an Italian type spinto rather than a
baritonal or heldentenor type. Del Monaco sang those roles, and
Vickers at least some of them, but also Margison, Heppner, and others.
I suppose that if the vocal categories of singers are sometimes
debatable, so are the classifications of the roles themselves. Otello
can certainly be considered a hallmark of the dramatic tenor
repertoire. Spinto tenors usually stay away from this part. Domingo is
an overachiever and an exception to many of the traditions of tenor
singing, since his voice is fairly light but he began singing Otello in
his mid-thirties and then went on to Siegmund and Ghermann. But even
Domingo resisted the most arduous German roles, such as Tristan,
Tannhauser, and Walter, and sang only a few Lohengrins. These roles
may be considered the domain of the Germanic heldentenor.
Jake Drake
donpaolo
2006-02-22 23:48:44 UTC
Permalink
On second thought, you gents do have a point. Namely, the ability that
Bergonzi had with mastering his vocal coloration, so he could tackle the
spinto/more "dramatic" or heavier roles with great success. I do feel that
these categories are necessary in order to establish a universal comparative
base for discussion, but to get into high degrees of specificity such as
light, medium, medium-heavy, heavy lyric vs. lirico-spinto, spinto, &
dramatic spinto becomes somewhat cumbersome :>))

DonPaolo
Post by Sergio da Silva
Right on the money, no Otello not a dramatic tenor.
Corelli was a true spinto, Tucker maybe, I would still classify Tucker as
a lyric tenor closer to spinto. Bergonzi was a lyric with a stronger
medium and could colour the voice at will.
Post by d***@aol.com
I consider the named roles spinto, not dramatic, although a dramatic
tenor could sing them. Tucker was a spinto and sang those roles.
Corelli was a spinto and sang those roles. Domingo is a spinto and
sang those roles. Ditto Bergonzi, a spinto, or perhaps lirico-spinto.
Tucker, Corelli, and Bergonzi did not sing Otello or Samson, correct?
They generally stayed away from the most dramatic or heaviest Italian
and French tenor roles. Roles such as Radames and Alvaro are fairly
high in tessitura and require an Italian type spinto rather than a
baritonal or heldentenor type. Del Monaco sang those roles, and
Vickers at least some of them, but also Margison, Heppner, and others.
I suppose that if the vocal categories of singers are sometimes
debatable, so are the classifications of the roles themselves. Otello
can certainly be considered a hallmark of the dramatic tenor
repertoire. Spinto tenors usually stay away from this part. Domingo is
an overachiever and an exception to many of the traditions of tenor
singing, since his voice is fairly light but he began singing Otello in
his mid-thirties and then went on to Siegmund and Ghermann. But even
Domingo resisted the most arduous German roles, such as Tristan,
Tannhauser, and Walter, and sang only a few Lohengrins. These roles
may be considered the domain of the Germanic heldentenor.
Jake Drake
w***@comcast.net
2006-02-23 00:56:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by donpaolo
I do feel that
these categories are necessary in order to establish a universal comparative
base for discussion,
I don't see how you can "establish a universal comparative base for
discussion" when there is so much disagreement about which singers fall
into which category.

Nor do I find such categories necessary, or even useful. They say next
to nothing about whether singer X is capable of singing role Y, except
in the most obvious cases. All they really do is allow someone to say
"Oh, he can't sing Y - he's not an X", without having to bother to
explain what the hell they're talking about.

Bill
d***@aol.com
2006-02-23 01:21:17 UTC
Permalink
I don't really understand how Bergonzi did it. There was something
about his voice, technique, and style that allowed him to be both lyric
and spinto. This is different from a Corelli singing Boheme or Romeo.
Bergonzi had the dark sound and the power of a spinto but the
flexibility and control over dynamics of a lyric. To my ears he is a
wonderful Radames (the only role I saw him do on stage), but also a
definitive Riccardo in Ballo, and a perfect Nemorino (live recording
with Scotto). Some may disagree, but I think Domingo also had this
ability, but perhaps not to the same extent as Bergonzi. In his youth,
Domingo's voice was not too dramatic for Alfredo or the Duke of Mantua
(although the tessitura may have been a challenge for him), and yet he
was already taking on spinto parts in his mid-twenties. Tucker had
some lirico qualities in the early years but quickly morphed into an
all-out spinto. Most spintos like to sing loud and blast out the high
notes. Most of them sing piano as little as possible and are not too
comfortable at less than mezzo-forte. I think this description fits
Tucker. His repertoire was typical for a spinto: Radames, Des Grieux,
Gabriele, Alvaro, etc. Most of the lighter lyric parts were abandoned
by mid-career, although he continued to sing Rodolfo. (I will defer to
others who are more familiar with his roles.) But the voice is pure
spinto; in my opinion, heavier than Bergonzi's or Domingo's.

Jake Drake
p***@aol.com
2006-02-23 02:14:33 UTC
Permalink
. Most spintos like to sing loud and blast out the high
notes. Most of them sing piano as little as possible and are not too
comfortable at less than mezzo-forte. I think this description fits
Tucker. His repertoire was typical for a spinto: Radames, Des Grieux,

Gabriele, Alvaro, etc. Most of the lighter lyric parts were abandoned
by mid-career, although he continued to sing Rodolfo. (I will defer to

others who are more familiar with his roles.) But the voice is pure
spinto; in my opinion, heavier than Bergonzi's or Domingo's.

Jake Drake
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Wrong you are, Jake.

Tucker sang such lyric roles as the Duke in Rigoletto and Edgardo in
Lucia until the day he died, and still did them wonderfully well. Also
sang in Cosi Fan Tutte in a 1965 revival. Hardly early in his career.
And he had the technical ability to do these roles, alternating with
Radames, Manrico, Canio, Calaf, etc.

This is not an opinion. It is a fact proved by the Met annals. Look it
up sometime.

Ed
d***@aol.com
2006-02-23 02:53:35 UTC
Permalink
Are the Met Annals online? I did a Google search on Tucker and could
not find any list of his performances.

If Tucker sang all those lyric parts in late career, he sang them as
the stentorian spinto tenor he was. I can't think of any other tenor
who did less piano singing. The Tucker singing I have heard live, on
video, on TV, and in live and studio recordings, everything was MF and
louder. I fear that sublety and restraint were not his style. But you
may have some secret tapes in your rumpus room that have him singing Je
crois entendre encore and Quando le sere al placido in a sweet piano.
In his French arias disc he blasts out the delicate aria from Les
Pecheurs.

Jake Drake
Mitchell Kaufman
2006-02-22 03:22:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by d***@aol.com
I also find it hard to think of Bergonzi as a baritone. His tenor is
very dark but always tenorish. And he was as comfortable with lyric
roles such as Nemorino and Alfredo as with Radames and Don Carlo. And
he never sang Otello, Samson, or other really dramatic tenor parts.
Bergonzi did color his voice as appropriate to the role, but I find that in
general, his sound is lighter starting in '62 or so--it's very evident on
the Traviata with Sutherland. It can also be heard when comparing the two
Pinkertons--'58 and '66.

BTW, if there ever was any doubt as to whether he could sing a Pinkerton
like that live, evidence may be found in the Met broadcast of '62 with Tucci.
Myto has issued this, and the whole performance is superb, quite possibly the
best thing Tucci ever did.

MK
p***@aol.com
2006-02-23 05:17:26 UTC
Permalink
BTW, if there ever was any doubt as to whether he could sing a
Pinkerton
like that live, evidence may be found in the Met broadcast of '62 with
Tucci.
Myto has issued this, and the whole performance is superb, quite
possibly the
best thing Tucci ever did.


MK
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Yes, this is a magnificent performance by Tucci and the great Bergozi.
The former baritone takes the high C with Tucci and holds it seemingly
forever. Some baritone!!

Best
Ed
d***@aol.com
2006-02-21 22:48:28 UTC
Permalink
Renato Zanelli sang for a number of years as a baritone before he
switched to tenor. I have recordings from both periods of his career
and find his baritone sound far superior to his tenor. The man died
prematurely so we will never know how his tenor career would have
evolved.

It is very hard for me to think of Fischer-Dieskau as a baritone; he
sings like a lyric tenor. Baritones can sound like a tenor when they
sing piano, but F-D still sounds like a tenor when he sings forte
(which is rarely). I would like to know if F-D every tried to sing
tenor or ever sang any tenor material in key.


I also find it hard to think of Bergonzi as a baritone. His tenor is
very dark but always tenorish. And he was as comfortable with lyric
roles such as Nemorino and Alfredo as with Radames and Don Carlo. And
he never sang Otello, Samson, or other really dramatic tenor parts.


I think that Mechior was a baritone, and he considered himself
naturally a lyric baritone. He stated that only a true baritone can
become a successful heldentenor for roles such as Tristan and Siegmund.

The heldentenor has a slightly lower voice than a true tenor and
usually cannot sustain the higher placement of the Italian spinto
parts. Melchior learned Walter but found it too tiring for his voice
and restricted himself to singing a couple of the arias in concert. He
described how vocal training helped him grind down the top of his
baritone range and replace it with tenor notes. Melchior used a
peculiar technique to place his high notes and they were often pinched
and thin, a mark of a baritone singing above his natural range.


Vocal categories are merely ways of grouping voices. There are a
number of singers whose vocal cords would allow them to be either
tenors or baritones. They are borderline between the two categories.
Their temperaments, training, and ambitions lead them to choose to be
one rather than the other. (Ditto sopranos and mezzo-sopranos). If you

have really good high notes, you may choose to sing tenor, and vice
versa. Placido Domingo never sang baritone roles in opera, contrary to

the belief of many. Before his voice was full trained, he sang he sang

some baritone parts in Spanish operetta. When he became an opera
singer he started out with comprimario tenor parts and then lyric
roles.
I am not aware of any major singer who sang baritone and tenor roles
at the same time in their careers. It is confusing to switch back and
forth because of the different demands of baritone and tenor roles.
Opera managers might also be thrown off by having to deal with a singer

who wants to sing both Alfredo and Germont pere. Bastianini and
Hvorostovsky both sound like basses to me and Ettore started out as a
bass.


It is quite appropriate for a potential tenor to sing baritone until
the voice is ready for the higher tessitura. I sang baritone in my
high school choir and didn't realize I was a tenor until I was in my
mid-twenties. Now I can sing a tenor high C and also most of the low
notes
of basses. Singing bass helps keep my voice relaxed and I do so
whenever possible.


Jake Drake



,
www.Handelmania.com
2006-02-21 22:57:24 UTC
Permalink
is very hard for me to think of Fischer-Dieskau as a baritone; he
sings like a lyric tenor. Baritones can sound like a tenor when they


AHHHHH.I finally agree with you...Keep with opera...you are very
lucid..and stay off the sauce.
t***@yahoo.com
2006-02-22 12:22:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by d***@aol.com
It is very hard for me to think of Fischer-Dieskau as a baritone; he
sings like a lyric tenor. Baritones can sound like a tenor when they
sing piano, but F-D still sounds like a tenor when he sings forte
(which is rarely). I would like to know if F-D every tried to sing
tenor or ever sang any tenor material in key.
Yes, he sang "Ich grolle nicht" from Schumann's Dichterliebe in the
original key for tenor which goes up to an A .... without being
convincing.

Take his compendium of Schubert Lieder. The huge majority of them were
composed for tenor, including Winterreise, and DFD transposes them
down.

OTOH he sang Bach's solo cantatas per bass and also the bass part in
other cantatas(but that's sewing machine music, so maybe that doesn't
count).

Colour is not the same as tessitura. Take Maria Casula in La Clemenza
di Tito. Her timbre is dark as a contralto's, but she sings the high
notes Baker avoids.

th.

PS BTW "spinto" is just the abbreviation for "lirico spinto" (without
dash); thus it is the same thing ....
d***@aol.com
2006-02-22 13:57:27 UTC
Permalink
th. (tmorice2)

"PS BTW "spinto" is just the abbreviation for "lirico spinto" (without
dash); thus it is the same thing .... "

I do not agree. Spinto in general means a medium weight voice, more
powerful and darker than a lyric but not totally baritonal nor suitable
for the heaviest tenor roles. Lirico means lyric, a light, youthful,
flexible voice able to manage parts such as Alfredo, Nemorino, the Duke
of Mantua and the like. A lirico-spinto is a voice which has power and
darkness and maturity when required, but which retains some elements of
the lyric tenor. Bergonzi is a perfect example since he was totally
convincing as both Alvaro and Radames, as well as Nemorino and Alfredo.
By your definition, all spintos are actually lirico-spintos and bridge
both categories, and this is not true. I would not call Corelli a
lirico-spinto, for example. Would you? I have never seen this term
applied to him or to the mature Tucker.

Jake Drake
t***@yahoo.com
2006-02-23 09:27:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by d***@aol.com
th. (tmorice2)
"PS BTW "spinto" is just the abbreviation for "lirico spinto" (without
dash); thus it is the same thing .... "
I do not agree. Spinto in general means a medium weight voice, more
powerful and darker than a lyric but not totally baritonal nor suitable
for the heaviest tenor roles. Lirico means lyric, a light, youthful,
flexible voice able to manage parts such as Alfredo, Nemorino, the Duke
of Mantua and the like.
whether you agree or not has little importance. I mean, you alone can't
change the Italian language.
"spinto" is the past participle of the verb "spingere": to push.
A "lirico spinto" (again, without dash), is a lirico which is "pushed"
towards drammatico.

"lirico spinto" is thus the intermediate between lirico and drammatico,
the way "lirico leggero" is the intermediate between lirico and
leggero.

"spinto" alone is just the abbreviation for "lirico spinto" the way
"mezzo" is the abbreviation for "mezzo soprano".

What you think won't change anything to it.

th.
d***@aol.com
2006-02-23 15:44:21 UTC
Permalink
Back at you. What you say makes no sense and doesn't fit the facts.
Corelli was not a lyric tenor pushing towards dramatic. His voice was
much heavier than a lyric from the beginning of his career and his
roles reflected that. What do you understand by the term "pushed"?
Forced, strained, stressed, pressurized? Good singers do not do any of
those things; certainly Bergonzi, Corelli, Tucker, and Domingo did not.
Your definition doesn't account for tenors who are naturally spintos
and basically unsuited to lyric roles. Corelli never had the vocal
quality of a lyric tenor such as Kraus or Gigli. Your position involves
several logical fallacies. The use of a term in one language does not
necessarily determine its meaning in another language. There are
thousands of words in English that have their origin from Spanish,
Latin, Dutch, German, American Indian, etc., and do not mean the same
thing as the words from which they are derived. The origin of a word
does not necessarily determine its current meaning. You cannot
convince me by stating what the word spinto means in Italian or by
explaining that it is a form of an Italian verb meaning so and so. I
am correctly using these terms as they are currently employed by
English speakers in the United States. In order to more precisely
describe and categorize voices, it is necessary to distinguish between
a pure spinto (a medium weight voice) and a lirico-spinto (a medium
weight voice with some lyrical qualities, a voice which combines lyric
and dramatic facets). Your insistence on confounding the two terms
destroys a very important distinction. One of the major functions of
language and speech is to make valid distinctions such as these.

Jake Drake
w***@comcast.net
2006-02-23 15:54:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by d***@aol.com
Back at you. What you say makes no sense
Then you'd better read it again; it makes perfect sense to me.
Post by d***@aol.com
and doesn't fit the facts.
We're not dealing with facts here, unless you think that your
characterization of various voices constitutes "fact".
Post by d***@aol.com
In order to more precisely
describe and categorize voices, it is necessary to distinguish between
a pure spinto (a medium weight voice) and a lirico-spinto (a medium
weight voice with some lyrical qualities, a voice which combines lyric
and dramatic facets).
As I mentioned earlier, it's neither necessary, nor possible.
Post by d***@aol.com
Your insistence on confounding the two terms
destroys a very important distinction.
Why is that distinction important?

Bill
d***@aol.com
2006-02-23 16:59:42 UTC
Permalink
Look at the matter objectively and logically. Why would the fact that
the word spinto comes from the Italian word meaning "pushed," imply
that in English it means voices which are "pushed"? In what sense was
Corelli's voice "pushed" but not the voices of Kraus, Pavarotti, Del
Monaco, Melchior, etc.? Why does a medium weight voice have to be a
basically lyric voice which is being pressured or forced to be
something beyond its nature? The concept of a voice which is being
pushed or forced is useless in categorizing voices. Why is it useful
to describe or categorize voices? Well, you can ask anyone who has
ever used the terms lyric, dramatic, tenor, bass, baritone, contralto,
etc. Ask them why they use such words. Why do singers describe
themselves as sopranos, countertenors, bass-baritones, heldentenors,
etc.? They are trying to communicate useful information about the kind
of voices they have and, by implication, the kinds of roles they can
do. Why do we classify operas as comedies or tragedies or melodramas?
What is the purpose of language? You figure it out.

Jake Drake
w***@comcast.net
2006-02-23 17:49:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by d***@aol.com
Why do singers describe
themselves as sopranos, countertenors, bass-baritones, heldentenors,
etc.? They are trying to communicate useful information about the kind
of voices they have and, by implication, the kinds of roles they can
do.
Because these are relatively objective terms, relating to range and
comfortable tessitura, not such nebulous and subjective items like
"color" and whether a voice is "pushed". Attempting to find a
meaningful way to distinguish between spinto and lyrico-spinto is akin
to figuring out how many opera clowns will fit on the head of a pin.

Bikll
d***@aol.com
2006-02-23 20:37:39 UTC
Permalink
I take it you are unable to understand the distinction. I can live
with that. But please do not try to draw me into one of your
innumerable, nasty cat -fights.

JD
w***@comcast.net
2006-02-23 20:50:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by d***@aol.com
I take it you are unable to understand the distinction.
Which distinction?
Post by d***@aol.com
I can live
with that. But please do not try to draw me into one of your
innumerable, nasty cat -fights.
Maybe you should head back to Opera-L, where's there's a moderator to
protect you when you make an ass of yourself.

Bill
t***@yahoo.com
2006-02-23 23:07:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by d***@aol.com
Back at you. What you say makes no sense and doesn't fit the facts.
which facts??
Post by d***@aol.com
The use of a term in one language does not
necessarily determine its meaning in another language. There are
thousands of words in English that have their origin from Spanish,
Latin, Dutch, German, American Indian, etc., and do not mean the same
thing as the words from which they are derived.
But .... "lirico spinto" are Italian words, albeit borrowed by the
English language, but still in use in Italian.
Every Italian native speaker would laugh cordially at your use of these
words.
Post by d***@aol.com
I
am correctly using these terms as they are currently employed by
English speakers in the United States.
who are of course the best specialists for Italian spoken in Italy,
Imagine I were speaking of English words the way they are used in
Germany and trying to convince you that "handy" means "cell phone" and
nothing else. "I am currently using this term as it is currently
employed by German speakers in Germany".....
Post by d***@aol.com
Your insistence on confounding the two terms
destroys a very important distinction.
Next time you'll tell me that in US English "mezzo" and "mezzo soprano"
are different.
If you want .....
But don't forget that "handy" is a cell phone ... in Germany...

th.
d***@aol.com
2006-02-23 23:15:00 UTC
Permalink
Last time I checked we were in the United States and speaking English.
You are stubbornly ignoring the arguments and points I have made. And
I do not concede that knowledgeable opera people in Italy today would
claim that every spinto tenor is actually a lyric tenor who is pushing.
This is the inference of your definitions. Actually, you haven't
given a definition because you haven't defined "pushed." Suit
yourself--you employ terms the way you like, and I will use terms as I
understand them. I won't spend any more time on this.

Jake
w***@comcast.net
2006-02-23 23:33:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by d***@aol.com
Last time I checked we were in the United States and speaking English.
Well, perhaps you are, but last time I checked, the Internet was
global.
Post by d***@aol.com
You are stubbornly ignoring the arguments and points I have made.
I guess that you're not arguing very persuasively, are you?
Post by d***@aol.com
Suit
yourself--you employ terms the way you like, and I will use terms as I
understand them.
Or not...
Post by d***@aol.com
I won't spend any more time on this.
You gonna hold your breath until you turn blue, too?

Bill
p***@aol.com
2006-02-24 00:03:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by d***@aol.com
Last time I checked we were in the United States and speaking English.
Well, perhaps you are, but last time I checked, the Internet was
global.
Post by d***@aol.com
You are stubbornly ignoring the arguments and points I have made.
I guess that you're not arguing very persuasively, are you?
Post by d***@aol.com
Suit
yourself--you employ terms the way you like, and I will use terms as I
understand them.
Or not...
Post by d***@aol.com
I won't spend any more time on this.
You gonna hold your breath until you turn blue, too?

Bill
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
One can hope he does, Bill !!!

Ed
Steffen
2006-02-24 01:18:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by w***@comcast.net
Post by d***@aol.com
Last time I checked we were in the United States and speaking English.
Well, perhaps you are, but last time I checked, the Internet was
global.
Drakejake obviously hasn't yet figured out how the Internet works.

Steffen Blume (presently in Berlin, where a mobile telephone is indeed
a "Handy")
Mario
2006-02-24 00:55:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by d***@aol.com
Last time I checked we were in the United States
You might want to check again, Jake. "We" are not all in the United
States.

Mario (Venezia)
Julie
2006-02-24 01:01:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mario
Post by d***@aol.com
Last time I checked we were in the United States
You might want to check again, Jake. "We" are not all in the United
States.
Mario (Venezia)
Merci, Mario!

Julie (Paris)
Jochen
2006-02-24 01:14:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mario
Post by d***@aol.com
Last time I checked we were in the United States
You might want to check again, Jake. "We" are not all in the United
States.
Mario (Venezia)
Yes, Jake, I think you need to rethink this. :-)))))

Jochen (München)
a***@comcast.net
2006-02-24 03:36:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mario
Post by d***@aol.com
Last time I checked we were in the United States
You might want to check again, Jake. "We" are not all in the United
States.
Mario (Venezia)
Yes, Jake, I think you need to rethink this. :-)))))

Jochen (München)

I am in South Florida.
St. André ~ ( in a dither )
l***@yahoo.ca
2006-02-24 01:26:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by d***@aol.com
Last time I checked we were in the United States
Sucks to you, drakejake. We are NOT!
Felicity
2006-02-24 01:36:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by d***@aol.com
Last time I checked we were in the United States and speaking English.
Does this mean that RMO is closed to those of us who may
be speaking English, but are *not* in the United States?

Felicity, home in London
Ken Meltzer
2006-02-24 01:51:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by Felicity
Post by d***@aol.com
Last time I checked we were in the United States and speaking English.
Does this mean that RMO is closed to those of us who may
be speaking English, but are *not* in the United States?
Felicity, home in London
Felicity:
As you've probably noticed, it's also open to those who are in the
United States, but who don't speak English.
Best,
Ken
p***@aol.com
2006-02-24 02:00:54 UTC
Permalink
Felicity:
As you've probably noticed, it's also open to those who are in the
United States, but who don't speak English.
Best,
Ken
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Prof. Higgens, I presume!!

Best
Ed
Ken Meltzer
2006-02-24 02:21:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ken Meltzer
As you've probably noticed, it's also open to those who are in the
United States, but who don't speak English.
Best,
Ken
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Prof. Higgens, I presume!!
Best
Ed
Well, Ed, I sing about as well as he did!
Best,
Ken
p***@aol.com
2006-02-24 05:24:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by p***@aol.com
Prof. Higgens, I presume!!
Best
Ed
Well, Ed, I sing about as well as he did!
Best,
Ken
===================================
Capisco, Rex!!

Ed
d***@aol.com
2006-02-24 02:44:21 UTC
Permalink
Hey, you idiots! Reread the messages you are criticizing. I was
writing in English and addressing someone I took to be in the United
States. I wasn't debating with Marco Daverio in Italy or David Mazer
in Buenos Aires. I know that there are people from many countries
participating. I have exchanged posts with a number of them. But I
was writing in English and talking about termininology used in the U.S.
I never attempted to explain what words the Italians use or what
definitions they employ. I don't really care about that. If I went to
Italy and discussed singers with an Italian, I might care, but I doubt
it. The fact that a word with a foreign origin has been incorporated
into English makes it an ENGLISH WORD! If none of this rings a bell
for you, let us just say that I have amply explained MY use of the
terms in question. Mr. TM has failed to do this. If any of you
classify Corelli as a lyric tenor and Gigli as a dramatic tenor, this
is fine with me.

Jake Drake
w***@comcast.net
2006-02-24 03:15:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by d***@aol.com
Hey, you idiots!
Please do not try to draw me into one of your innumerable, nasty cat
-fights.
Post by d***@aol.com
Reread the messages you are criticizing.
No, thanks. Once was quite sufficient.
Post by d***@aol.com
I was writing in English
Oh.
Post by d***@aol.com
and addressing someone I took to be in the United States.
You're conversing with someone named Thierry Morice, and you assume
that he's in the US?
Post by d***@aol.com
I know that there are people from many countries participating.
Well, you do now.
Post by d***@aol.com
But I
was writing in English and talking about termininology used in the U.S.
Speak for yourself, bub. I don't use that terminology in the USA, or
anywhere else.
Post by d***@aol.com
The fact that a word with a foreign origin has been incorporated
into English makes it an ENGLISH WORD!
Nope.
Post by d***@aol.com
If none of this rings a bell
for you, let us just say that I have amply explained MY use of the
terms in question.
No, you haven't. Not even close.
Post by d***@aol.com
Mr. TM has failed to do this.
No, he hasn't. I understand him perfectly - his English is obviously
better than yours.

Bill
t***@yahoo.com
2006-02-24 08:27:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by d***@aol.com
Hey, you idiots! Reread the messages you are criticizing. I was
writing in English and addressing someone I took to be in the United
States.
Thanks for your appreciation of my English!
I'm a Frenchman living in Germany and fluent in Italian among others
....

I never said a "lirico spinto" is a lirico who is "pushing", I just
tried to make clear that, as the categorisation of voices evolved and
the necessity was felt to have intermediate categories between lirico
and leggero as well as between lirico and drammatico, the categories
"lirico leggero" and "lirico spinto" came in use, the last one meaning
lirico who is "pushed" or (less literally but probably more accurately)
"shifted" towards the drammatico. Has nothing to do with how he (or
she) produces his/her voice.

Sorry if you can't understand this. But anyway I admire your sense of
geography, of linguistics and the thickness of your skull. If it
improves the quality of your resonance cavities, it could excuse your
calling idiots people YOU just don't understand.

th.
La Donna Mobile
2006-02-24 10:27:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by Felicity
Post by d***@aol.com
Last time I checked we were in the United States and speaking English.
Does this mean that RMO is closed to those of us who may
be speaking English, but are *not* in the United States?
Felicity, home in London
Me too
--
http://www.madmusingsof.me.uk/weblog/
http://www.geraldine-curtis.me.uk/photoblog/
Jeffrey
2006-02-24 12:53:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by La Donna Mobile
Post by Felicity
Post by d***@aol.com
Last time I checked we were in the United States and speaking English.
Does this mean that RMO is closed to those of us who may
be speaking English, but are *not* in the United States?
Felicity, home in London
Me too
--
http://www.madmusingsof.me.uk/weblog/
http://www.geraldine-curtis.me.uk/photoblog/
Me too, though in SA.
--
Jeffrey
Nella
2006-02-24 01:07:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by t***@yahoo.com
But .... "lirico spinto" are Italian words, albeit borrowed by the
English language, but still in use in Italian.
Every Italian native speaker would laugh cordially at your use of these
words.
Yes, we are laughing! Why do so many Americans who can not speak
Italian insist to prove this in public over and over? It is really not
necessary.

But if Jake Drake thinks that "we are in the United States".......

Nella in Milano
Steve Silverman
2006-02-22 16:55:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by t***@yahoo.com
Yes, he sang "Ich grolle nicht" from Schumann's Dichterliebe in the
original key for tenor which goes up to an A .... without being
convincing.
That's actually the baritone key (C major). There is an ossia for singers
who want to avoid the A.

Steve Silverman
Silverfin
2006-02-22 21:38:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by Steve Silverman
Post by t***@yahoo.com
Yes, he sang "Ich grolle nicht" from Schumann's Dichterliebe in the
original key for tenor which goes up to an A .... without being
convincing.
That's actually the baritone key (C major). There is an ossia for singers
who want to avoid the A.
Yes, C major is the original key. My copy says 'for medium voice'.
Regarding the ossia, in the phrase 'und sah die Schlang', die dir am
Herzen frisst', Schumann's original manuscript stays on D throughout.
According to Dr Friedländer, Schumann later added the version going up
to A (on 'Herzen') to the proofs.

Silverfin
t***@yahoo.com
2006-02-23 09:35:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by Silverfin
Post by Steve Silverman
Post by t***@yahoo.com
Yes, he sang "Ich grolle nicht" from Schumann's Dichterliebe in the
original key for tenor which goes up to an A .... without being
convincing.
That's actually the baritone key (C major). There is an ossia for singers
who want to avoid the A.
Yes, C major is the original key. My copy says 'for medium voice'.
Regarding the ossia, in the phrase 'und sah die Schlang', die dir am
Herzen frisst', Schumann's original manuscript stays on D throughout.
According to Dr Friedländer, Schumann later added the version going up
to A (on 'Herzen') to the proofs.
Thanks for the corrections/explanations.
I should stay with Schubert and not try to venture too much on Schumann
;-)
Anyway, DFD's choice of the higher option is not really convincing in
my ears.

th., needing to check his Dichterliebe collection again ....
EvelynVogtGamble(Divamanque)
2006-02-21 16:31:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mike Richter
Post by www.Handelmania.com
We know that Carlo Bergonzi,Raymond Gibbs,and a few others changed from
baritone to tenor and I am asking if youthink any of the following were
really in some way "lazy tenors" who just could not extend the top and
Thomas Hampson,Dietrich Fischer-Dieskau,Sherrill Milnes (sounds
baritonal,but might have been a Heldentenor because he has top notes
that the other two do not have)
I'd not consider any of your nominees to have been a "lazy tenor",
though each in his way has/had a tenorial quality to his upper range. Go
back a little farther to Lawrence Tibbett; there are recordings where
one has to get halfway through before realizing he was not a tenor. Yet
his role in Tristan (for example) was Marke, not Kurwenal and he
excelled as Escamillo despite the role often being taken by a basso
cantante or bass-baritone.
The ability to color the tone can be misleading. The issue is tessitura
and that is where Hampson, DFD, Milnes and many others are/were clearly
baritones. Caruso was still a tenor when singing "Vecchia zimarra",
though he colored his tone to be effective playing basso.
Ever hear Thomas Quasthoff's recording of ALL the male arias
from Zauberflote? (Yes, including Tamino's - beautifully
sung.) Yet does anyone doubt he's a bass?
Post by Mike Richter
Mike
w***@comcast.net
2006-02-21 17:24:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by EvelynVogtGamble(Divamanque)
Ever hear Thomas Quasthoff's recording of ALL the male arias
from Zauberflote? (Yes, including Tamino's - beautifully
sung.) Yet does anyone doubt he's a bass?
He sounds like a baritone to me.

Bill
Richard Loeb
2006-02-21 19:04:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by w***@comcast.net
Post by EvelynVogtGamble(Divamanque)
Ever hear Thomas Quasthoff's recording of ALL the male arias
from Zauberflote? (Yes, including Tamino's - beautifully
sung.) Yet does anyone doubt he's a bass?
He sounds like a baritone to me.
Bill
Correct - he is a baritone. There are very few true basses singing today -
bass-baritones perhaps but no basses on the order of Reizen or Pinza.(No-
Pape is not a bass) Richard
EvelynVogtGamble(Divamanque)
2006-02-22 03:56:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by w***@comcast.net
Post by EvelynVogtGamble(Divamanque)
Ever hear Thomas Quasthoff's recording of ALL the male arias
from Zauberflote? (Yes, including Tamino's - beautifully
sung.) Yet does anyone doubt he's a bass?
He sounds like a baritone to me.
Bass-baritone, perhaps - but certainly NOT a lyric tenor,
which was the point I was making. Have you heard the
recording?
Post by w***@comcast.net
Bill
w***@comcast.net
2006-02-22 14:00:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by EvelynVogtGamble(Divamanque)
Post by w***@comcast.net
He sounds like a baritone to me.
Bass-baritone, perhaps - but certainly NOT a lyric tenor,
which was the point I was making.
Of course he doesn't.
Post by EvelynVogtGamble(Divamanque)
Have you heard the recording?
Yes.

Bill
Ken Meltzer
2006-02-22 21:03:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by EvelynVogtGamble(Divamanque)
Bass-baritone, perhaps -
That's how I would characterize Quasthoff's voice. I've heard him sing
Sarastro's second aria, taking the lower option at the conclusion.
Granted, it didn't erase memories of Kipnis, but the fact that he could
sing the aria with the kind of security and beautiful tone he produced
throughout makes me think the voice is placed just a bit lower than
pure baritone.
Best,
Ken
Mike Richter
2006-02-22 06:48:19 UTC
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Post by Mike Richter
I'd not consider any of your nominees to have been a "lazy tenor",
though each in his way has/had a tenorial quality to his upper range. Go
back a little farther to Lawrence Tibbett; there are recordings where
one has to get halfway through before realizing he was not a tenor. Yet
his role in Tristan (for example) was Marke, not Kurwenal and he
excelled as Escamillo despite the role often being taken by a basso
cantante or bass-baritone.
I have been corrected - Tibbett did not sing Marke (or Kurwenal either,
as far as I can tell).

Mike
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http://www.mrichter.com/
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