Turandot and The Mikado

[clem]

Just finished our Asian weekend - The Mikado at City Center, and
Turandot at the Met. There are some similarities between the two;
Sullivan used an actual Japanese song, just as Puccini used Chinese
music. The costumes are very similar. Both involve narrow escapes
from decapitation. Koko's line "Hate you? Oh Katisha! Is there not
beauty even in bloodthirstiness?" could have been a satirical
reference to Turandot, except that The Mikado was written about 40
years earlier!

Of course, Turandot is a soprano, while Katisha is a contralto;
( there are wonderful contralto roles throughout G and S) The Mikado
is funnier, Turandot is tearier, and The Mikado has a more believable
plot.

The NYGASP production of The Mikado is really very good. Keith
Jurasko (The Mikado) and Richard Holmes (Pish Tush) are veterans of
some 20 seasons with the company, and it was wonderful to see and hear
them both again this season. Holmes will be singing Despard in next
week's Ruddigore, which we are really looking forward to. There were
a few too many anachronisms thrown in for laughs ( and the did get
laughs) for my taste, and while it is customary to update both "I've
got a little list" and "My object all sublime", in this production
Gilbert's lyrics were almost entirely abandoned, including the classic
"On a cloth untrue, with a twisted cue, and elliptical billiard
balls."

I enjoyed Turandot a lot more than Ed Rosen did. It helps ( no
criticism of Ed is implied by these remarks) if one expunges the
ghosts of Turandots past. I thought that Licitra was fine as Calaf,
and Kovalevska an affecting Liu, although I liked her better in Act
III than in Act I; I found her "Signor Ascolta" a bit underpowered.
Lise LIndstrom as Turandot has no trouble being heard, but for me
there is a kind of metallic quality to her voice that I don't really
like. The chorus, orchestra, and the Zefferelli sets were all
magnificent. It is a great piece. Almost as good as The Mikado.

Paul

[[e-mail]]

Well, Paul, if you had seen the ENO Turandot, you would have seen a
perfect blending of Mikado and Turandot <g>.

Did you find LL underpowered in the lower part of the voice? I heard
her unexpected debut, which isn't always a good way to judge, and I
thought that it was only in the upper 1/4 of the voice that there was
some meat, but again, I am sure she had not even had a full stage
rehearsal. Any thoughts about her?

All best

Post by clem
Just finished our Asian weekend - The Mikado at City Center, and
Turandot at the Met.  There are some similarities between the two;
Sullivan used an actual Japanese song, just as Puccini used Chinese
music.  The costumes are very similar. Both involve narrow escapes
from decapitation.  Koko's line  "Hate you?  Oh Katisha! Is there not
beauty even in bloodthirstiness?" could have been a satirical
reference to Turandot, except that The Mikado was written about 40
years earlier!
Of course, Turandot is a soprano, while Katisha is a contralto;
( there are wonderful contralto roles throughout G and S)  The Mikado
is funnier, Turandot is tearier, and The Mikado has a more believable
plot.
The NYGASP production of The Mikado is really very good.  Keith
Jurasko  (The Mikado) and Richard Holmes (Pish Tush) are veterans of
some 20 seasons with the company, and it was wonderful to see and hear
them both again this season. Holmes will be singing Despard in next
week's Ruddigore, which we are really looking forward to.  There were
a few too many anachronisms thrown in for laughs  ( and the did get
laughs) for my taste, and while it is customary to update both "I've
got a little list"  and "My object all sublime", in this production
Gilbert's lyrics were almost entirely abandoned, including the classic
"On a cloth untrue, with a twisted cue, and elliptical billiard
balls."
I enjoyed Turandot a lot more than Ed Rosen did. It helps  ( no
criticism of Ed is implied by these remarks) if one expunges the
ghosts of Turandots past.  I thought that Licitra was fine as Calaf,
and Kovalevska an affecting Liu, although I liked her better in Act
III than in Act I; I found her "Signor Ascolta" a bit underpowered.
Lise LIndstrom as Turandot has no trouble being heard, but for me
there is a kind of metallic quality to her voice that I don't really
like.  The chorus, orchestra, and the Zefferelli sets were all
magnificent.  It is a great piece.  Almost as good as The Mikado.
Paul

[[e-mail]]

Post by clem
Just finished our Asian weekend - The Mikado at City Center, and
Turandot at the Met.  There are some similarities between the two;
Sullivan used an actual Japanese song, just as Puccini used Chinese
music.  The costumes are very similar. Both involve narrow escapes
from decapitation.  Koko's line  "Hate you?  Oh Katisha! Is there not
beauty even in bloodthirstiness?" could have been a satirical
reference to Turandot, except that The Mikado was written about 40
years earlier!
Of course, Turandot is a soprano, while Katisha is a contralto;
( there are wonderful contralto roles throughout G and S)  The Mikado
is funnier, Turandot is tearier, and The Mikado has a more believable
plot.
The NYGASP production of The Mikado is really very good.  Keith
Jurasko  (The Mikado) and Richard Holmes (Pish Tush) are veterans of
some 20 seasons with the company, and it was wonderful to see and hear
them both again this season. Holmes will be singing Despard in next
week's Ruddigore, which we are really looking forward to.  There were
a few too many anachronisms thrown in for laughs  ( and the did get
laughs) for my taste, and while it is customary to update both "I've
got a little list"  and "My object all sublime", in this production
Gilbert's lyrics were almost entirely abandoned, including the classic
"On a cloth untrue, with a twisted cue, and elliptical billiard
balls."
I enjoyed Turandot a lot more than Ed Rosen did. It helps  ( no
criticism of Ed is implied by these remarks) if one expunges the
ghosts of Turandots past.  I thought that Licitra was fine as Calaf,
and Kovalevska an affecting Liu, although I liked her better in Act
III than in Act I; I found her "Signor Ascolta" a bit underpowered.
Lise LIndstrom as Turandot has no trouble being heard, but for me
there is a kind of metallic quality to her voice that I don't really
like.  The chorus, orchestra, and the Zefferelli sets were all
magnificent.  It is a great piece.  Almost as good as The Mikado.
Paul

It is possible, Paul, that Licitra sang well at your performance and
poorly at the performance I saw earlier in the week. Believe me, he
was awful. And I usually like him, for some reason. But Tuesday night
was amateur night as far as Licitra was concerned. I am glad he
appears to have done better in the next performance.

Ed

[clem]

Post by ***@aol.com

Post by clem
Just finished our Asian weekend - The Mikado at City Center, and
Turandot at the Met.  There are some similarities between the two;
Sullivan used an actual Japanese song, just as Puccini used Chinese
music.  The costumes are very similar. Both involve narrow escapes
from decapitation.  Koko's line  "Hate you?  Oh Katisha! Is there not
beauty even in bloodthirstiness?" could have been a satirical
reference to Turandot, except that The Mikado was written about 40
years earlier!
Of course, Turandot is a soprano, while Katisha is a contralto;
( there are wonderful contralto roles throughout G and S)  The Mikado
is funnier, Turandot is tearier, and The Mikado has a more believable
plot.
The NYGASP production of The Mikado is really very good.  Keith
Jurasko  (The Mikado) and Richard Holmes (Pish Tush) are veterans of
some 20 seasons with the company, and it was wonderful to see and hear
them both again this season. Holmes will be singing Despard in next
week's Ruddigore, which we are really looking forward to.  There were
a few too many anachronisms thrown in for laughs  ( and the did get
laughs) for my taste, and while it is customary to update both "I've
got a little list"  and "My object all sublime", in this production
Gilbert's lyrics were almost entirely abandoned, including the classic
"On a cloth untrue, with a twisted cue, and elliptical billiard
balls."
I enjoyed Turandot a lot more than Ed Rosen did. It helps  ( no
criticism of Ed is implied by these remarks) if one expunges the
ghosts of Turandots past.  I thought that Licitra was fine as Calaf,
and Kovalevska an affecting Liu, although I liked her better in Act
III than in Act I; I found her "Signor Ascolta" a bit underpowered.
Lise LIndstrom as Turandot has no trouble being heard, but for me
there is a kind of metallic quality to her voice that I don't really
like.  The chorus, orchestra, and the Zefferelli sets were all
magnificent.  It is a great piece.  Almost as good as The Mikado.
Paul

It is possible, Paul, that Licitra sang well at your performance and
poorly at the performance I saw earlier in the week. Believe me, he
was awful. And I usually like him, for some reason. But Tuesday night
was amateur night as far as Licitra was concerned. I am glad he
appears to have done better in the next performance.
Ed

I do not think that even the severest critic would have called Licitra
"awful" last night, so he must have been better than he was on
Tuesday. His "Nessun Dorma" did not blow anyone away, but overall, as
I wrote, he was effective. My problems with LL were not volume, but
if you are referring when you say "meat" to a richness of tone in the
lower register, then I agree with you. I wonder whether sopranos who
are performing the role deliberately avoid "beautiful singing,"
thinking that a certain harshness of tone is apt. ( I have absolutely
no idea whether this point is valid in any way!)

Paul

[Stephen Jay-Taylor]

The real connection between Puccini and The Mikado is Madama
Butterfly, not Turandot. Americans may have dificulty distiguishing
between China and Japan, as Hollywood casting regularly confirms, but
Puccini didn't. For his Japanese-set opera he asked Ricordi to supply
him with the full score of Sullivan's work, which he knew contained
some authentic Japanese melodies and which he duly consulted, though
no-one as far as I'm aware has ever dared point to any exact borrowing
that might more intimately link Cio-Cio-San and Yum Yum. The English
score score remains in the library at Torre del Lago.

SJT

[clem]

Post by Stephen Jay-Taylor
The real connection between Puccini and The Mikado is Madama
Butterfly, not Turandot. Americans may have dificulty distiguishing
between China and Japan, as Hollywood casting regularly confirms, but
Puccini didn't. For his Japanese-set opera he asked Ricordi to supply
him with the full score of Sullivan's work, which he knew contained
some authentic Japanese melodies and which he duly consulted, though
no-one as far as I'm aware has ever dared point to any exact borrowing
that might more intimately link Cio-Cio-San and Yum Yum. The English
score score remains in the library at Torre del Lago.
SJT

This is really interesting! Thanks! Of course, I knew that Turandot
is supposed to take place in China, not Japan, but that was the opera
I saw that night. And Katisha reminds me of Turandot. You could make
the case that Yum-Yum, in her "artless Japanese way" does resemble Cio-
Cio-San, but I never make that connection when I see either work.

As to distinguishing between China and Japan - are you aware that Life
Magazine (IIRC) had an article during WW II showing how to tell a
Japanese man from a Chinese man, based on the shape of the head among
other things?

Paul

[s***@berkeley.edu]

Having just seen the Mets live HD production of Turandot on the big screen in Emeryville CA, the multiple links to the Mikado were quite obvious. Several snatches of the music; also costumes; both having lord high executioners; clownish trio Ping, Pang and Pong matching clownish trio Pooh Bah, Pish Tush, and Ko-Ko; both of these trios discouraging the unknown/disguised Prince; the bloodthirsty Katisha and bloodthirsty Turandot. But there are also links to Princess Ida: Icy Turandot in her Palace and imperious Princess Ida in her Castle Adamant, both spurning men who are not their equal, both courted by disguised Princes who avoid death by their wits, and for whom the two Princesses ultimately melt. Likewise, two significant kings, blind Timur and witty king Gama, and two background kings, Hildebrand and the Emperor. Then too one could match match up Ping, Pang and Pong with Princess Ida's trio, Arac Guron and Scythes. Sure, all stock figures at one level. But if Puccini had a copy of the Mikado score he would also have known about Princess Ida which immediately preceded the Mikado. As was his wont, Puccini made a drama out of the G&S comedies to drama.